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    Thread: 9.0 PH Help! am I reading it wrong? Ammonia 1.0 fish laying on bottom

    1. #21
      Marilyn's Avatar
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      Homework!

      This entire section is a great read to be up to speed on water quality, things to have on hand and so forth:

      http://www.koiphen.com/forums/forumd...re-Information

      Btw, going forward, it's a good idea to have enough of the Prime (Cloram-x or Safe) on hand to treat 1 1/2 times your total pond volume. Don't skimp on this. Weird and unexpected things can happen. I've had them happen. You want to be able to do a massive water change and be able to treat the water you put in there.
      Many years ago, my neighbor sprayed her trees. It created a 4,000 gallon toxic environment for my koi. I was lucky and had a 1,000 gallon quarantine tank to move them to but over the next day or two, I had to empty my pond and replace all of the water. It also meant the ammonia level jumped in my QT system.
      Expect the unexpected.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

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      I have large white butterfly koi and can see her fins and tail has large red veins and she has been hiding under bridge most all day. Hope they feel better soon. I have read briefly on kh but still very beginner on water quality. Is that something I should test for and adjust?

    3. #23
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      Quote Originally Posted by Marilyn View Post
      Homework!

      This entire section is a great read to be up to speed on water quality, things to have on hand and so forth:

      http://www.koiphen.com/forums/forumd...re-Information

      Btw, going forward, it's a good idea to have enough of the Prime (Cloram-x or Safe) on hand to treat 1 1/2 times your total pond volume. Don't skimp on this. Weird and unexpected things can happen. I've had them happen. You want to be able to do a massive water change and be able to treat the water you put in there.
      Many years ago, my neighbor sprayed her trees. It created a 4,000 gallon toxic environment for my koi. I was lucky and had a 1,000 gallon quarantine tank to move them to but over the next day or two, I had to empty my pond and replace all of the water. It also meant the ammonia level jumped in my QT system.
      Expect the unexpected.
      Will do!

    4. #24
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      Depending on your filtration, maintain your KH (with baking soda) to no less than 100. Make that 150 if you have a bead filter.
      Bind ammonia and add the baking soda. You test for KH with a drop kit. I hope you have one. The KH is what the bio bacteria need to make the conversions from ammonia to nitrite to nitrate.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

      I'll say something when I feel I have something worth saying. I'm not a fan of flapping my lips just because they are there.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Marilyn View Post
      Depending on your filtration, maintain your KH (with baking soda) to no less than 100. Make that 150 if you have a bead filter.
      Bind ammonia and add the baking soda. You test for KH with a drop kit. I hope you have one. The KH is what the bio bacteria need to make the conversions from ammonia to nitrite to nitrate.
      I will have to order on amazon. I had the api test stick that read kh but used them all up on my other small tank.

    6. #26
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      You won't get better advice than from Marilyn.
      You're on the right path.
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    7. #27
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      If you are going to order a product from Amazon, get the SAFE from Seachem, as it is the powdered version of Prime and is less costly in the long run. It is always good to have that product on hand and the powder never goes bad. Pretty much, SAFE protects against ammonia, nitrate, nitrate, heavy metals etc. And chloramine which you don't have in your water supply now but you never know in the future your city may change to it. If you've already ordered it, maybe you can cancel and re-order the powdered product. Also, I always buy the 4 kg size even though it's $100, you will never run out of that and in the long run it's cheaper, and you always need it when you do a water change. Plus it's great and emergency just like what you're having now.

      And definitely Marilyn and Steve are giving great advice stick with them, do not listen to your local fish store owner. once your pond cycles, things will settle out. Having the Seachem product on hand will make the transition a little less worrisome and it will get you through the cycling process.

      And what Marilyn is saying about the KH is very important you need to get a KH kit and you need to monitor that also. I'll let Marilyn or Steve handle it from here on that subject, but in my opinion, I feel it is one of the most important parameters that you can check and keep your pond healthy by maintaining it.

      While you are shopping on Amazon, get the API liquid drop test kits, they are more accurate, and easier to read than strips.

      Take care,


      Nancy


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    8. #28
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      SAFE: https://smile.amazon.com/Safe-4-kg-8...s=Safe+Seachem

      You don't really need the GH kit, but it's cheaper to buy the two of them together, then the KH alone!

      https://smile.amazon.com/API-TEST-Fr...ds=KH+test+kit


      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."






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    9. #29
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      Quote Originally Posted by nmtsaki View Post
      SAFE: https://smile.amazon.com/Safe-4-kg-8...s=Safe+Seachem

      You don't really need the GH kit, but it's cheaper to buy the two of them together, then the KH alone!

      https://smile.amazon.com/API-TEST-Fr...ds=KH+test+kit
      Thank you, I just ordered both. Now to try and relax and hope for the best! I will check on them in the morning. Thsnk you all for your time and help, I really appreciate it.

    10. #30
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      That's what we're here for, to help. I hope when all of this is over you decide to stay, become a member and join our community. We have a lot of good forums here, The Main Forum, for all subjects related to fish, and equipment and anything more related to fish & ponds; obviously the emergency forum; Chitchat, where we just get together and talk about fish and non-fish related stuff); pond construction, where you learn all the ins and outs of DIY projects, peoples pond builds, filtration, and other related aspects of the technical side of pond keeping and maintaining your system, etc. All good things to read and enjoy!

      It's scary, but it will be fine. Just remember to does every 48 to 72 hours based on faith alone! I've gone through ammonia and nitrIte spikes before, and it really works. However, I still have a tiny amount of salt just to be on the safe side or the nitrate, it just makes me feel better and doesn't interfere with the Prime.

      Here's a link to an experiment I did a while back, if you feel like reading through it. The results of the experiment are in post number 18:

      http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...ighlight=Prime
      Last edited by nmtsaki; 05-06-2018 at 09:22 AM.


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    11. #31
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      Foothill, I just caught up on your build thread. One thing we need to establish is if your pond builder gave you an accurate measurement for the gallons of your ponds. This is very very important because it influences the dosing rates of things we are recommending. The Prime will not be an issue and can be overdosed with a degree of safety. Other things, like salt and medications, need to have an accurate water measurement for safety.

      Did your pond builder use a meter to measure the amount of water he put in there?
      There are pond calculators that can help give a guideline of water volume. I looked for it on the WWKC site but am not familiar with the new layout so can't find it on there. I'm linking a different one I found online:

      https://www.apifishcare.com/help-calculator.php

      For example, a round 10' wide and 2' deep pond comes out to 1178 gallons. That is with no rocks, no sloped sides and so forth.
      There is a reverse way to check total gallons by using a salt meter which I would suggest you have on hand anyway. Basically, take the salt measurement before you add any salt. Then add a fixed amount, say 20 lbs, let that dissolve into the water. Come back in say 5 hours and take a salt reading. Subtract your first reading from the second reading, then on the koi calculators I told you about before, enter 20 lbs and the salinity difference. It will calculate your gallons for you.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

      I'll say something when I feel I have something worth saying. I'm not a fan of flapping my lips just because they are there.

    12. #32
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      Quote Originally Posted by Marilyn View Post
      Foothill, I just caught up on your build thread. One thing we need to establish is if your pond builder gave you an accurate measurement for the gallons of your ponds. This is very very important because it influences the dosing rates of things we are recommending. The Prime will not be an issue and can be overdosed with a degree of safety. Other things, like salt and medications, need to have an accurate water measurement for safety.

      Did your pond builder use a meter to measure the amount of water he put in there?
      There are pond calculators that can help give a guideline of water volume. I looked for it on the WWKC site but am not familiar with the new layout so can't find it on there. I'm linking a different one I found online:

      https://www.apifishcare.com/help-calculator.php

      For example, a round 10' wide and 2' deep pond comes out to 1178 gallons. That is with no rocks, no sloped sides and so forth.
      There is a reverse way to check total gallons by using a salt meter which I would suggest you have on hand anyway. Basically, take the salt measurement before you add any salt. Then add a fixed amount, say 20 lbs, let that dissolve into the water. Come back in say 5 hours and take a salt reading. Subtract your first reading from the second reading, then on the koi calculators I told you about before, enter 20 lbs and the salinity difference. It will calculate your gallons for you.
      I copied and pasted his text below. I wasn't here when he filled it up but this is what he told me. Hoping he is correct for the sake of medications and dosing in the future. My salt level is already where I want it so I can't add more. But if I ever have to do a water change and add more salt I will try that method of measurement as well. My pond is such an award shape that it's nearly impossible to get the gallons by that method.

      The flow meter indicated that the upper basin held 1134 gallons. The lower was 2214 gallons.

    13. #33
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      Quote Originally Posted by foothill999 View Post
      New 3400 gallon pond on day 6. Using api drop tester and the 630g is blue if I am reading it correct it seems like wide range on is between 8.5 or 9. The ammonia level is reading 1.0. Salt level is 375x10 on my meter so I think .375 . A couple of the large koi seem to be laying on the bottom of the pond this morning and not moving alot.also all seem less interested in food.what should I do?
      At this point, the pH is the least of your problems. You need to be using the high range pH test kit to get accurate readings of pH above 7.4.

      I assume this is a new pond. It takes 6 weeks or longer for the filter to cycle to convert ammonia to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate. In the mean time, use Prime, SAFE. or Cloram-X to keep the ammonia in a safe form, and keep the salt concentration at 0.15% for as long as nitrite is present. Monitor as ammonia and nitrite until both are below the lower limit of detection of the API test kit.

      Get a Seachem Ammknia Alert card to monitor free ammonia, and use that as a guide for adding Prime, SAFE, or Cloram-X. The API test measures total ammonia. The Ammonia Alert Card measures free ammonia, and it is the free ammonia that is toxic. If free ammonia is detected, add more Prime, SAFE, or Cloram-X.

      You should also monitor KH. Filters will cycle faster if KH is above 150 ppm.

      You need to get the Prime, SAFE, or Cloram-X into the p ok nd immediately.

      Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

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    14. #34
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      I apologize to all who replied with excellent advice before me. For some reason, I could only see the original post in this thread when I wrote my response. After my response posted I could see the 32 other posts.

      Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

    15. #35
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      I thought I only saw three responses when I did mine. When I ended up on the second page, I did a double take and went back and edited! Maybe a glitch. I got knocked in the head yesterday, so I wasn't counting on my memory being that great, so I just passed it off. But when it happens to 2 people............

      Quote Originally Posted by RickF View Post
      I apologize to all who replied with excellent advice before me. For some reason, I could only see the original post in this thread when I wrote my response. After my response posted I could see the 32 other posts.

      Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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    16. #36
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      Quote Originally Posted by RickF View Post
      At this point, the pH is the least of your problems. You need to be using the high range pH test kit to get accurate readings of pH above 7.4.

      I assume this is a new pond. It takes 6 weeks or longer for the filter to cycle to convert ammonia to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate. In the mean time, use Prime, SAFE. or Cloram-X to keep the ammonia in a safe form, and keep the salt concentration at 0.15% for as long as nitrite is present. Monitor as ammonia and nitrite until both are below the lower limit of detection of the API test kit.

      Get a Seachem Ammknia Alert card to monitor free ammonia, and use that as a guide for adding Prime, SAFE, or Cloram-X. The API test measures total ammonia. The Ammonia Alert Card measures free ammonia, and it is the free ammonia that is toxic. If free ammonia is detected, add more Prime, SAFE, or Cloram-X.

      You should also monitor KH. Filters will cycle faster if KH is above 150 ppm.

      You need to get the Prime, SAFE, or Cloram-X into the p ok nd immediately.

      Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk



      Well I appreciate your reply, good to see consist advice I have learned so much in a short period of time. For the main pond I have did all the recommendations and today the pond is due for a second dose of Prime, hoping to have my KH test delivered today so I can check that. since yesterday morning I have been dealing with a whole another issue.

      I have 4 approx 3 year old or older koi (my mom gave them to me 6 months ago) in the 150 tub that have been awaiting the new bigger pond, the filtration on that pond has never given me issues, always clean, always test well, almost no maintenance. I had just added a plant thing in there the night before. Looked out there and they were spawning! We thought they were all boys since they have never done that. I thought just 2 were fat! So needless to say that tank was a mess. They have been spawning for over 24 hours and still look they are doing it right now there is 2 girls and 2 boys. Do they spawn that long? The tank is full of eggs, piles and piles of eggs.... the filters are full of them they are piles everywhere. They were eating them, but there is still tens of thousands left in there. I dont think the filter can keep up with that mess and the water ammonia and nitrite are high. In this case I think its more then the prime can fix. Should I just do a 50 percent water change daily until the filters catch up?

    17. #37
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      When it rains, it pours. It's the nature of having ponds.

      Yes, do a big water change. You need to bind the water you put in there with the Prime and also treat the existing water for an ammonia spike. Clean all filters. On that small a system with 3 koi, I would suggest you clean the filters probably every 12 hours until you are caught up. The Prime will help with the nitrite spike, as well.
      My suggestion is to bind the ammonia reading you are getting pre water change. Bind for the amount of water you add. Take another reading for ammonia a few hours later and see if it adds up to the ammonia you have bound.
      You don't want a pH crash on top of this so test for KH as soon as you can. As I said before, the bio bacteria need the KH (baking soda) do the conversions and you're likely to have put a tremendous strain on that filter. KH should be no less than 100ppm for a filter under that load.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

      I'll say something when I feel I have something worth saying. I'm not a fan of flapping my lips just because they are there.

    18. #38
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      I used to vacuum the eggs out of the pond as soon as possible. The eggs are high protein, and the fish gorging themselves on that high protein diet will cause high ammonia, as will the milt, and with your pond, you don't need a few thousand young koi to feed and maintain, when very few of them would be of any value.

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    19. #39
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      Quote Originally Posted by Marilyn View Post
      When it rains, it pours. It's the nature of having ponds.

      Yes, do a big water change. You need to bind the water you put in there with the Prime and also treat the existing water for an ammonia spike. Clean all filters. On that small a system with 3 koi, I would suggest you clean the filters probably every 12 hours until you are caught up. The Prime will help with the nitrite spike, as well.
      My suggestion is to bind the ammonia reading you are getting pre water change. Bind for the amount of water you add. Take another reading for ammonia a few hours later and see if it adds up to the ammonia you have bound.
      You don't want a pH crash on top of this so test for KH as soon as you can. As I said before, the bio bacteria need the KH (baking soda) do the conversions and you're likely to have put a tremendous strain on that filter. KH should be no less than 100ppm for a filter under that load.

      I think they finally are done. I have done big water changes each day and that has seemed to help. Water quality straight from hose on that tank and I just remembered that is the only hose that uses the softened water from inside the house, hopefully that's ok. I added prime anyways and my kh test is being delivered today, Amazon just emailed about a delay on the powdered safe that was suppose to come. Hopefully that is only a short delay. Will update as soon as I get the kh test results and adjust both ponds as needed.

    20. #40
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      Yes I have no room for any babies

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