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    Thread: Matt's Kohaku/Sanke Spawn 2018

    1. #1
      Matt24's Avatar
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      Matt's Kohaku/Sanke Spawn 2018

      Greetings everyone! Not warm enough yet, but planning for this potential 2018 spawn. While calling it "kohaku/sanke", there are a couple of qualifers, (1) it is to include a male showa and (2) let's see if this really happens.

      With the female kohaku, my plan for now is to include four males (two kohaku, a sanke, and a showa). All five are selected from my red ones rather than the orange in hopes of more red developing in the results. (Attempts 10+ years ago yielded mostly orange with few red.) Out of my dozen or so fish in the kohaku/sanke/showa varieties, only a few are mature females, and only one of those is red. So she's the one. She has a couple of shimis and a rather simple pattern, but good build and size for 5 years. The males include my 16-year-old kohaku and 10-year-old showa plus two, a kohaku and a sanke, that I picked up second-hand last fall for a nice price.

      One reason for including a showa male is that my showa spawns in the last 3 years used orange females, producing orange showa, but not red. So I would like to see if any truly red showa will come from the red-red combo.

      Let's see if this really happens. Besides a possible change of plans, I tried to use this female in a spawn once before. The two males with her did their best with lots of pushing and splashing for nearly an hour, but she never laid her eggs. Hopefully the time will be right when it warms up later this spring. I'll try to add pictures of the adults in the coming days.

      Matt

      Update: Despite a full moon, water changes, and a couple of rain storms, this group did not spawn this year. So I swapped them out for my B-Team of showa which came through. Details of the showa spawn are at http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...owa-Spawn-2018
      Last edited by Matt24; 06-08-2018 at 07:54 AM.

    2. #2
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      Hey Matt ! .. I’ll be watching to see how the season turns out for you .
      The weather has been up and down everywhere this year we’re just now getting consistent weather.

      I like the choices you made to go for the red . Good luck



    3. #3
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      Thanks Delbert. It was a mild March and then we got temps in the 20's in early-mid April, weird.

      Between the cloudy sky today, wave distortion, and glare (no leaves on the trees yet), these photos aren't too good. But they give an idea of what these koi are like. First here is the female Dainichi.

      Name:  Scarlet 4-22-2018.JPG
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      Here are the older male kohaku and showa. For many years, the red on the kohaku extended down to his right eye, symmetrical with the left side. But over the last couple of years, he has developed a receding hi-line.

      Name:  Red Wolf 4-22-2018.JPG
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Size:  51.1 KB Name:  Shofar 4-22-2018.JPG
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      Below are the bargain male kohaku and sanke that I found last fall.

      Name:  Akagi 4-22-2018.JPG
Views: 282
Size:  69.3 KB Name:  Sanke 4-22-2018.JPG
Views: 278
Size:  51.0 KB

    4. #4
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      Very nice parents to be.

      Matt you're an old pro it seems at spawning. Can you give some tips on sure-shot ways to trigger spawning. I'd like them do it in the spring before we go away on our summer vacation. Thanks.

      (hopefully this won't derail this lovely thread too much, my apologies)
      Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time. ---- Marthe Troly-Curtin



    5. #5
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      Thanks KoiRun. Not an old pro, very much an amateur. First make sure you've got a mix of male and female. Sounds stupid I know, but I once misidentified a chubby male as a female, and it did not work ... until I pulled him out of the spawning tub and put him in the girls' pond . Sometimes they don't spawn when I want them to. Having something to spawn on is important, such as spawning brushes, spawning ropes. Of course if you have plants, that will do, though most koi folks don't. Some use artificial Christmas garlands. Water temperature is a key. Some say around 72 F (22 C) or so is best, but I've seen them spawn anywhere from the lower 60's (17 C) to the upper 70's (25 C), and occasionally even outside of that range. As far north as you are, I wonder if it would take until late June or something, unless you heated the water. Changes sometimes seem to set them off, like a significant water change, just moving them to a new pond or tub, or a rainstorm or cool front blowing in. Some say they like a full moon, but I've seen them spawn at all stages of the lunar cycle. I don't know of any one thing or combination that always works. Usually doing the above will work, but you may have to give it time. Sometimes I've left mine in the spawning pond for many days before they spawned. Best of luck!

    6. #6
      Koigrl's Avatar
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      Matt! You go, guy. I like your oyagoi a lot and of course cannot wait to hear/see how it goes.
      I have a good feeling about 2018!



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    7. #7
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      Quote Originally Posted by Matt24 View Post
      Thanks KoiRun. Not an old pro, very much an amateur. First make sure you've got a mix of male and female. Sounds stupid I know, but I once misidentified a chubby male as a female, and it did not work ... until I pulled him out of the spawning tub and put him in the girls' pond . Sometimes they don't spawn when I want them to. Having something to spawn on is important, such as spawning brushes, spawning ropes. Of course if you have plants, that will do, though most koi folks don't. Some use artificial Christmas garlands. Water temperature is a key. Some say around 72 F (22 C) or so is best, but I've seen them spawn anywhere from the lower 60's (17 C) to the upper 70's (25 C), and occasionally even outside of that range. As far north as you are, I wonder if it would take until late June or something, unless you heated the water. Changes sometimes seem to set them off, like a significant water change, just moving them to a new pond or tub, or a rainstorm or cool front blowing in. Some say they like a full moon, but I've seen them spawn at all stages of the lunar cycle. I don't know of any one thing or combination that always works. Usually doing the above will work, but you may have to give it time. Sometimes I've left mine in the spawning pond for many days before they spawned. Best of luck!
      Thanks so MUCH for these wonderful tips Matt.
      Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time. ---- Marthe Troly-Curtin



    8. #8
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      Well this group just is not spawning. So I moved them back to the main pond and am going to try a different group. If I get a spawn from the B-team, I will post that in another thread.

      I had this group in my little pond with spawning ropes for a couple of weeks. Water temperature stayed in the 70-75 F range throughout this time. So that was fine. I tried 20% water changes 3 days in a row. They let the full moon go by. We even had a couple of storms move through with 1" and 1/2" rains respectively. Once there was a full moon, a rain at night, and water temps in the lower 70's all at the same time, and still nothing. I never even saw the boys looking interested.

      She does not appear to be as loaded with eggs as many females get, as you can see from the photo above. As I had mentioned above, "I tried to use this female in a spawn once before. The two males with her did their best with lots of pushing and splashing for nearly an hour, but she never laid her eggs." I might wonder if she was truly a female accept that the two males I just mentioned certainly thought she was. So did Kodama when I purchased her from the auction. So I think she is really female, but either not ready or perhaps she'll just never be very good for spawning. In any case, I am moving on with plan B.

    9. #9
      Koigrl's Avatar
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      Matt, sorry this isn't going as planned. Approx how old is the balky female? If you feel like taking a pic of her vent, we can take a look and opine.



      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




      Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

      Updated for the 2018 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

      Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
      https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

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    10. #10
      Matt24's Avatar
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      Hi Max. She's 5 years old. It would be pretty difficult for me to get such a photo, though I am interested if anyone knows of good example photos on the net. All I have seen in the past is crude sketches and small photos from too far away.

      The previous failed spawning tip with her was in mid-July 2016 when she was three. Water changes, aggressive flirting by the two males over 4 days, a full moon Ö nothing worked.
      Last edited by Matt24; 06-02-2018 at 05:05 PM.

    11. #11
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      I’m having the same problem Matt
      I just new this last full moon with a thunderstorm was all it would take . But nothing
      I did a big water change today I still have hope

      My 2 year olds spawned 4 or so weeks ago and I have little ones swimming with them

      Good luck with your 2nd go at it .... Matt"



    12. #12
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      Pics of male/female underparts. ;)

      matt, this is the one i use.
      Attached Images Attached Images  



      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




      Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

      Updated for the 2018 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

      Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
      https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

      If you're reading this, you're on Team Ki.
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    13. #13
      Matt24's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Koigrl View Post
      matt, this is the one i use.
      Thanks Max. That's better than the crude sketches for sure.

      Quote Originally Posted by delbert View Post
      Iím having the same problem Matt
      I just new this last full moon with a thunderstorm was all it would take . But nothing
      I did a big water change today I still have hope

      My 2 year olds spawned 4 or so weeks ago and I have little ones swimming with them

      Good luck with your 2nd go at it .... Matt"
      Thanks Delbert. Good luck getting yours to go. I guess they have grandkids coming along already.

      I guess the conditions were alright in my little pond. When I swapped out the kohaku and sanke for a group of showa, they got right to it. Details at:
      http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...owa-Spawn-2018

    14. #14
      Steve Sibly is offline Senior Member
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      Hi Matt,

      I can see where your going with this, An understand but if your trying to produce Kohaku i would think there ( Most ) long term will end up with Shimi's through them ?
      Not a problem for Sanke or Showa but if you were trying for khaki i think this may be a high possibility Cobba.
      All the best with it though mate look forward to your progress.

    15. #15
      Matt24's Avatar
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      Hi Steve. I suspect you are right (I don't really know) that shimis will eventually come through on most. Whether by genetics, water conditions, or both, whatever causes it. I think all 3 of my kohaku have at least one. And like you say, no big worry for showa or sanke. I'd be fine with kohaku, showa, or sanke, as long as they have good bodies and color. I wanted red, and bottom line, this is the only female I have that is red (rather than orange). But ...

      It won't matter this year since they did not spawn anyway. But my B-team of showa came through. Details at:
      http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...owa-Spawn-2018[/QUOTE]

      Thanks,

      Matt

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