Sick pond needs help

[ThanhT]

In addition, 80-85% first water change last week took over 10 hours (2 hours to drain and 8 1/2 hours to fill) and the pump was off as it suck water from top of the vortex that could be the problem as filter media lost its effectiveness due to long hours idling? Just a thought.

Thanh.

[Marilyn]

Thanh, I'm glad OC asked for pond details. The details shed a lot of light on issues happening.

IMO you are under filtered for what you are asking your pond to do. You don't have a lot of bio filtration and directing half of the water back via venturi is, IMO, a mistake. Your pump is likely only doing a once an hour turn over rate.
If it were my pond, I would direct all the flow back over the 20g filter media too. You are showing ammonia but no nitrites. Have you tested nitrAtes?
The nitrification cycle goes from ammonia to nitrite to nitrate. If nitrates are present and you still have ammonia showing, it's further indication that you are under filtered. Your pond size is not bad but I think your stumbling point is the amount of bio filtration. This is something I would look into addressing when the water is reliably above 68 degrees.

Btw, the 80-85% water change is something I rarely suggest someone do. It became even more of an issue given the time of year and the amount of time it took for you to get the pond filled and filters running normally.
As I previously mentioned, the bio bacteria and koi are running at full steam in the mid 70's range. Doing this in 60 degree water makes all of it more challenging. Your fish load isn't that heavy for 3200-3500 gallons but it became abnormally heavy when you removed 80-85% of the water.

Back to your koi health situation. I do think it is possible you are dealing with a bacterial issue. Do you have any medications on hand for treating for bacterial issues?
I feel I need to mention again that stable healthy water is one of the best things you can provide now.

[OCkoiFan]

Working
Order some Elbagin to have on hand if treatment is needed later
Get your qtank or smaller pond ready since treating sick koi in smaller volume save on medication
I kinda feel filtration is suspicious

[ThanhT]

Thanks Marilyn,
I don't have any med. for bacterial treatment and I don't have the nitrate test kit neither. Will get the test. Can you tell me which brand and dose I should use for bacterial issue?

Thanks.

Thanh.

[Marilyn]

API does a master test kit which will have ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH test (low range, as I recall).

The bacterial treatment is not an easy thing to suggest. Not all bacteria respond to all medications, that is why there is a wide range of antibiotics used for different things.
OC is right that Elbagin can be helpful but IME, it's most successful with situations caught early. He is also right that this is best done in a quarantine tank because you have more control of heating it and the cost to treat is less. There is a protocol with Elbagin that may work for you but for it to have any chance, you need to be able to heat the water.
No antibiotic used in 60 degree water will work as well as it will if the water is in the 70's but it's a process. You can't take a sick koi that has been in 60 degree water and immediately move it into 70's water. All that does is increase the infection reproduction without having the koi's immune system up to speed to handle it.

Do you have or can you get a tank to treat those showing bacterial issues? No less than 200 gallons, please.
Do NOT buy Melafix or Pimafix.

[ThanhT]

What is the different between phosphate and nitrate test kit? I have two complete API master test kit but both contain Ammonia, Nitrite, high range PH and phosphate, no nitrate.

Thanh.

[Marilyn]

What is the different between phosphate and nitrate test kit? I have two complete API master test kit but both contain Ammonia, Nitrite, high range PH and phosphate, no nitrate.

Thanh.

Phosphate tests for phosphate. It does not test for nitrate unless it says nitrate which is a two bottle test. The master kit I purchased is this one:

[OCkoiFan]

Phosphate is not important more like for pool to see if there’s - problem causing algae

A good filtration n pond should have ammonia and level close to undetectable nitrite zero and nitrate should be detectable at all time but not super high I prefer from 5-40ppm (of course wc lower nitrate level)

[ccna101]

I do have API nitrate test bottles that I use regularly for my pond. You are welcome to borrow, pm me here if you need : I am in the eastbay area.

-d-

Thanks Marilyn,
I don't have any med. for bacterial treatment and I don't have the nitrate test kit neither. Will get the test. Can you tell me which brand and dose I should use for bacterial issue?

Thanks.

Thanh.

[ThanhT]

Thanks ccna101,
You are such a nice member. I will stop by pet shop and get the test today after work.
Much appreciate it.
Thanks again.

Thanh.

[ThanhT]

Pond volume.
Just to make sure I am doing everything accurately, I recheck the formula to calculate pond water volume and get confused by 2 sources.

1- Length x Width x Dept (in feet) x 7.5 = Gallons (I've been using this formula also recommended by the dealer)

2- Length x Width x Dept (in feet) x 6.25 = gallon??



"The most accurate way to determine the volume of a pond that has been built to any standard geometrical shape is by measurement. One cubic foot will hold 6.2288 Imperial gallons and there will only be a 0.003% error if the usual approximation of 6.25 gallons is used.

If the length, width and depth of a standard square or rectangular pond, as shown in figure 1, can accurately be measured then its volume can be found by the formula:

Length x Width x Depth x 6.25 = Volume (Imperial gallons). Where Length, Width and Depth are all measured in feet."


Can someone confirm the above formulas please?

Thanks a lot.

Thanh.

[icu2]

Something like this will do it for you:

https://www.apifishcare.com/help-calculator.php

But that's only accurate if your sides are completely vertical. Most liner ponds end up being bowl shaped so any
calculation is usually more than you actually have. A more reliable method is to use salt but knowing you're trying
to get a measurement for medication, it might unreasonable to do now. The one good thing is that if you're going
to treat with malachite green/formaldehyde (ProForm-C or Broad Spectrum) it's usually pretty forgiving as some
people will treat at 1 1/2 the recommended dose. Prazi/Fluke-M is also very forgiving of an overdose.

If you do have time to do the salt method there's a "Koi Calculator" link at the top of the forum with a salinity calculator
and under "Examples" it explains how to calculate the ponds volume in gallons. Be sure to measure for any salinity before
starting the test.

http://www.koiphen.com/forums/koicalcs.php?do=calcsalt

[RichToyBox]

Thew differences in the two formulas is the expressed result. The one with 7.48 is to calculate US gallons, where the other is to calculate Imperial Gallons, where the difference is shown here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallon A gallon is not a gallon but a liter is a liter.

[ThanhT]

Just tested nitrate and result was 10. Making water change now and will treat Prazi soon after. I went to koi store in the morning and purchased some stuffs including a jar of "PondMax Medima" (recommended by the dealer) to treat bacterial diseases but will not use it as the label says the bio-media must be removed and I am not sure about the product?? I am working on adding another pressurize filter and stronger pump.

The PH is 7.8-8.0
KH = 140
Nitrite 0
Ammonia .5
temperature 57

The battle goes on and my weekend will be the pond and the sick fish but wish everyone a nice weekend.

Take care all.

Thanh.

[RichToyBox]

Just tested nitrate and result was 10. Making water change now and will treat Prazi soon after. I went to koi store in the morning and purchased some stuffs including a jar of "PondMax Medima" (recommended by the dealer) to treat bacterial diseases but will not use it as the label says the bio-media must be removed and I am not sure about the product?? I am working on adding another pressurize filter and stronger pump.

The PH is 7.8-8.0
KH = 140
Nitrite 0
Ammonia .5
temperature 57

The battle goes on and my weekend will be the pond and the sick fish but wish everyone a nice weekend.

Take care all.

Thanh.

I am not familiar with that product and Google isn't very helpful. Can you give us more info? Where did you find it? What is in it?

[ThanhT]

Just get in from the yard working on the pond. The koi store I often buy koi and products from caries this "PondMax MediMA" and there is no ingredients listed on the jar except says "controls and prevents bacteria infections, rapidly repair finrot and ulcers"

Thanks.

Thanh.

[OCkoiFan]

Never heard or able to search that product. I’m thinking that might me similar to “Koizyme” which help reduces chance of ulcers development. To treat ulcers antibiotics are best
There are many products that been use widely with good results
I myself been using Elbagin and so far so good. All you need a good size Qtank indoor cover with some type of heaters

[RichToyBox]

I think the product is https://pondmax.com/medimax-fish-treatment/ trying to search without the x on the end goes nowhere. Looking at what little it has to say, it sounds kind of like it might be BGDX repackaged/rebranded. I have not used it but some have.

[ThanhT]

New tests this morning showing some improve on ammonia.
PH 7.8
Nitrite 0
KH 140
Nitrate 10
Ammonia .25 (down from .5)

Lost my beautiful koi to Heron Saturday. I always have a mesh dangling from the canopy built above the pond (like curtain) down all the way to the ground. I rolled up one section (about 6 feet) just to work on the new filter, left it opened a few hours went to the store for some required parts, had lunch came back and the thief had completed his mission. He was spying on me or something?

Anyway, two more koi died as expected. One was the biggest in the pond, I actually killed him as my wife couldn't stand seeing him floating on his side motionless, pale body, red fins and tail for couple days so we decided to end the suffering (his and ours).
Today couple fish still flashing and the water/air temperature keep dropping as Bay Area now going through another unusual cool week.
Seems like nothing is on my side in the past 3 weeks and can't tell when it ends?

Is it normal that my koi still flashing now? If it is then when will it stop approximately? My water improves slowly but will get there.

Thanks all so much for your advises and patience.

Sincerely,

Thanh.

[OCkoiFan]

Thanh
Sorry for the losses
We are still playing the guessing game here until
You can bring one of the koi that flashes the most for scrape and scope.
There are many koi dealers in the Bay Area that should able to do thiis
Give em a call and check and maybe bring them some ice coffee
Inland Koi took care of me when I had my trouble

Btw did you recalculate and how certain are you with the volume now