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    Thread: Water Issue: High pH, kH and gH - black dots showing up

    1. #1
      Stevectx is offline Supporting Member
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      Water Issue: High pH, kH and gH - black dots showing up

      Ph is over 9
      Kh is 143
      Gh is 19 drops (off the charts) but over 300.

      I've measured several times over the past year and these numbers are pretty consistent. Obvious problem for the Koi is that some are developing Shumi (little black spots) on their scales and one has them developing spots in its red tancho.

      The root cause of the problem the local water source...water is pulled from is a limestone aquifer. To try to lower those hardness numbers I've put oyster shell in the water but I don't think it can be effective unless I do something to pull down the Kh so the shells can dissolve...not sure about that.

      I'm afraid that there is no way to correct this and I'll never be able to have high quality kio with this issue but I'm hoping some of you experienced guys have dealt successfully with this in the past.

      Any advice on lowering those numbers would be greatly appreciated.

      Regards,
      Steve
      Last edited by Stevectx; 03-13-2018 at 12:07 PM.

    2. #2
      Pond,James_Pond's Avatar
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      I think I heard Kevin say once that RO (reverse osmosis) could safely lower the pH but he hasn't tried it so I don't know.

      steve

    3. #3
      Russell Peters's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Stevectx View Post
      Ph is over 9
      Kh is 143
      Gh is 19 drops (off the charts) but over 300.

      I've measured several times over the past year and these numbers are pretty consistent. Obvious problem for the Koi is that some are developing Shumi (little black spots) on their scales and one has them developing spots in its red tancho.

      The root cause of the problem the local water source...water is pulled from is a limestone aquifer. To try to lower those hardness numbers I've put oyster shell in the water but I don't think it can be effective unless I do something to pull down the Kh so the shells can dissolve...not sure about that.

      I'm afraid that there is no way to correct this and I'll never be able to have high quality kio with this issue but I'm hoping some of you experienced guys have dealt successfully with this in the past.

      Any advice on lowering those numbers would be greatly appreciated.

      Regards,
      Steve
      You can throw away the oyster shell as it is a total waste of time. KH does not affect it and it will not lower your GH. Oyster shell is used to raise your KH but will only work if your pH is below 7.

      The only thing that will work for you is an RO unit. You can lower your GH, which will lower your pH and you can use a blending valve after the RO unit to buffer your water with untreated water.
      Last edited by Russell Peters; 03-13-2018 at 01:02 PM.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    4. #4
      Stevectx is offline Supporting Member
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      Oh my gosh...where can i get an RO unit to work for a pond? I have one for my drinking water under the sink but what does a system look like for a 4500 gallon pond?

      Regards,
      Steve

    5. #5
      Russell Peters's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Stevectx View Post
      Oh my gosh...where can i get an RO unit to work for a pond? I have one for my drinking water under the sink but what does a system look like for a 4500 gallon pond?

      Regards,
      Steve
      Use Google, figure out how many gallons a day you want and then type it in to the search engine. I am installing one that will generate 4,000 gallons a day so I went with Axeon. They make larger commercial units.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    6. #6
      tbullard is online now Senior Member
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      You won't need to have 100% RO water. This one will give you up to 150GPD https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/6-sta...CABEgIezvD_BwE Then blend it with tap water to get the result your after. This is assuming a trickle in that will eventually replace the existing water in the pond and not filling up from scratch which would take forever.

    7. #7
      Pond,James_Pond's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
      The only thing that will work for you is an RO unit. You can lower your GH, which will lower your pH and you can use a blending valve after the RO unit to buffer your water with untreated water.
      Exactly. Thanks for chiming in, Russ. It sounds so much better from someone who actually has experience and knows what they're talking about.



      steve

    8. #8
      tbullard is online now Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Pond,James_Pond View Post
      Exactly. Thanks for chiming in, Russ. It sounds so much better from someone who actually has experience and knows what they're talking about.



      steve
      Your the one who quoted Kevin when suggesting RO as a solution

    9. #9
      Hugomizz is offline Senior Member
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      With all respect its not about fitting an RO on a pond and running it.

      You will need to know the below and have a target.

      PH
      KH
      GH
      TDS

      RO will strip everything out the water including the KH, your PH will fluctuate on this and with little or no KH you will be in danger of things going south, typically you should have two PH probes on your system connected to a 2 different PH controllers so you can if there is any difference in the readings, one of the controllers should control a dosing pump so as the PH drops to a lower value you can dose a solution to raise the KH will will raise the PH, blending is Ok but its not ideal as the water companies change the parameters often and also when blending you will see a variance in it. A dosing solution can be saturated bi carb. other hobbyists wont even dose bi carb they will use hard water instead.

      You need to figure what you want out the hobby, don't take this the wrong way if your fish are pond grade it hardly seems worth it, but if your spending 10K on a nisai and trying to raise fish to win at Koi shows then its a big tool.

    10. #10
      tbullard is online now Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Hugomizz View Post
      With all respect its not about fitting an RO on a pond and running it.

      You will need to know the below and have a target.

      PH
      KH
      GH
      TDS

      RO will strip everything out the water including the KH, your PH will fluctuate on this and with little or no KH you will be in danger of things going south, typically you should have two PH probes on your system connected to a 2 different PH controllers so you can if there is any difference in the readings, one of the controllers should control a dosing pump so as the PH drops to a lower value you can dose a solution to raise the KH will will raise the PH, blending is Ok but its not ideal as the water companies change the parameters often and also when blending you will see a variance in it. A dosing solution can be saturated bi carb. other hobbyists wont even dose bi carb they will use hard water instead.

      You need to figure what you want out the hobby, don't take this the wrong way if your fish are pond grade it hardly seems worth it, but if your spending 10K on a nisai and trying to raise fish to win at Koi shows then its a big tool.
      Do you have any further info you could share on dosing with a a solution of saturated bi carb. I have low KH tap water and would like an automated system for adding bi carb.

    11. #11
      RichToyBox's Avatar
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      As was mentioned by Hugomizz, RO strips everything, KH, GH, TDS, ... Water softeners will remove the GH, leaving the rest of it alone. I wish I knew what makes up your GH. Typically it is calcium when it comes from limestone water sources and with lots of calcium, if the KH is of the carbonate type, again typical of the limestone type water sources, the pH should be about 8.3. The only way that the pH should go above 8.3 is if there is insufficient bicarb, or insufficient calcium, as the bicarb will react with the calcium and form calcium carbonate, ie limestone solids, not affecting the pH. If you are measuring the pH with the drop type test kits, they are not very good at measuring the pH at high or low numbers. Look at Amazon for a pH pen and get some calibration solution at the 7 and 10 pH values to be sure the pen is giving good readings.

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    12. #12
      kevin32's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Pond,James_Pond View Post
      Exactly. Thanks for chiming in, Russ. It sounds so much better from someone who actually has experience and knows what they're talking about.



      steve
      What is your problem? I've been nothing to nice to you and you want to degrade me. Shame on you and I actually let you speak out your opinion on wwkc and this is what I get in return. I want to say things to you that will just lead me to a ban and you win

      And think again I never said it would lower ph, which it can. It def gets the the gh down and that is what I mentioned when discussing shimmies. Pull your head out
      Last edited by kevin32; 03-13-2018 at 09:41 PM.

    13. #13
      mplskoi is online now Supporting Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by tbullard View Post
      Do you have any further info you could share on dosing with a a solution of saturated bi carb. I have low KH tap water and would like an automated system for adding bi carb.
      Tbull- if you are serious about wanting an automated KH system- one of our club members who has a super high tech pond system has a fully automated system. I would reach out to him on your behalf if you want. I think his is automated to add a metered amount per gallon of water changed. And monitored by a Seneye.

    14. #14
      Russell Peters's Avatar
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      Originally Posted by HugomizzWith all respect its not about fitting an RO on a pond and running it.

      You will need to know the below and have a target.

      PH
      KH
      GH
      TDS

      RO will strip everything out the water including the KH, your PH will fluctuate on this and with little or no KH you will be in danger of things going south, typically you should have two PH probes on your system connected to a 2 different PH controllers so you can if there is any difference in the readings, one of the controllers should control a dosing pump so as the PH drops to a lower value you can dose a solution to raise the KH will will raise the PH, blending is Ok but its not ideal as the water companies change the parameters often and also when blending you will see a variance in it. A dosing solution can be saturated bi carb. other hobbyists wont even dose bi carb they will use hard water instead.

      You need to figure what you want out the hobby, don't take this the wrong way if your fish are pond grade it hardly seems worth it, but if your spending 10K on a nisai and trying to raise fish to win at Koi shows then its a big tool.




      I am lucky, my water will not change as it is well water. I can just set it up to blend and be fine.
      Last edited by Russell Peters; 03-13-2018 at 10:03 PM.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    15. #15
      kevin32's Avatar
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      Well water contains lots of nutrients and minerals so it doesn't take as much to replenish what the r/0 strips. In fact the 2 work hand and hand very well but might need a expert to confirm this since I don't know much about anything

    16. #16
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      Im not on well water but I dont add anything into the pond no clays just a bicarb solution when needed and fresh water and food.

      The fish get all they need from a good quality food

    17. #17
      kevin32's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Hugomizz View Post
      Im not on well water but I dont add anything into the pond no clays just a bicarb solution when needed and fresh water and food.

      The fish get all they need from a good quality food
      Russ says food doesn't matter. Don't you get it? Saki baby.

      Also the bicarb is helping the minerals. Well water contains this already in most cases
      Last edited by kevin32; 03-13-2018 at 10:26 PM.

    18. #18
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      Quote Originally Posted by Stevectx View Post
      Ph is over 9
      Kh is 143
      Gh is 19 drops (off the charts) but over 300.

      I've measured several times over the past year and these numbers are pretty consistent. Obvious problem for the Koi is that some are developing Shumi (little black spots) on their scales and one has them developing spots in its red tancho.

      The root cause of the problem the local water source...water is pulled from is a limestone aquifer. To try to lower those hardness numbers I've put oyster shell in the water but I don't think it can be effective unless I do something to pull down the Kh so the shells can dissolve...not sure about that.

      I'm afraid that there is no way to correct this and I'll never be able to have high quality kio with this issue but I'm hoping some of you experienced guys have dealt successfully with this in the past.

      Any advice on lowering those numbers would be greatly appreciated.

      Regards,
      Steve
      Hi Steve - I have several years experience with massive R/O injection, 1000's of gallons a day. I no longer use because I only have mud ponds now.

      As others have mentioned, it will help but only to a certain degree, depending on the source water.

      My pH was also high, Kh 120, Gh 400 plus.

      It needs to be monitored very well or a pH crash will occur. It is all about %. If you decrease your Gh by 50%, you will also decrease your Kh by 50%. So in my case, Kh would be 60, Gh 200.

      If you add source water back in, it will also increase in the same %. There is no fine tuning

      Best of Luck
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    19. #19
      kevin32's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by stephen View Post
      Hi Steve - I have several years experience with massive R/O injection, 1000's of gallons a day. I no longer use because I only have mud ponds now.

      As others have mentioned, it will help but only to a certain degree, depending on the source water.

      My pH was also high, Kh 120, Gh 400 plus.

      It needs to be monitored very well or a pH crash will occur. It is all about %. If you decrease your Gh by 50%, you will also decrease your Kh by 50%. So in my case, Kh would be 60, Gh 200.

      If you add source water back in, it will also increase in the same %. There is no fine tuning

      Best of Luck
      Thanks for chiming in. You and Mark have state of the art equipment to me but mad respects to water quality etc... it is alot of work to get there. Mark has high ph coming in and this water is hard. Comes from our water here and is not the best you can get

    20. #20
      kevin32's Avatar
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      You have high kh which is good but the high ph and gh seems you need a r/o to keep it down. Does the ph seem stable in morning and night also?

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