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  • Results 1 to 14 of 14

    Thread: Ki Shusui?

    1. #1
      DanG is offline Junior Member
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      Ki Shusui?

      Aprox 2 years old. I assume its female. What are your thoughts? Maybe valuation?
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    2. #2
      jimfish98's Avatar
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      I believe this is an Aya Wakaba. Main difference I believe was the Ki Shusui has its color come up from the stomach while the Aya Wakaba straddles the back making its way down.

      As an oddball fish its cool and interesting. Quality wise you would seek a cleaner skin and coloring.



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    3. #3
      Russell Peters's Avatar
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      people vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better
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      I agree, it is an Aya Wakaba, the color is a bit different than a Ki Shisui
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    4. #4
      Koigrl's Avatar
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      Did someone say Ki Shusui?

      Did someone call me? LOL

      IMHO this koi is ki shusui.

      I have been studying this variety or sub-variety for many years and this is what I've learned.

      According to one Japanese breeder, Hoshino-san at Yamanaka Ohya, "Ayawakaba" means 'fresh new leaves over water,' That is, the pattern crosses the dorsal ridge. ki shusui is the same as shusui in terms of lateral pattern on either side of dorsal scales, but the color is yellow (ki) rather than red. if the color comes up from the belly, that is asagi markings on a doitsu fish and just fine by me (!) but opens a different discussion about asagi and shusui.

      What I've learned is that genetics of these two varieties is very close or even identical.

      below, First photo is a ayawaka that russ shot when he was at Yamanaka Ohya a few years back. (with thanks to Russ!)
      In a video meeting with the breeder, Hideo Hoshino-san, he told us that the genetics of these types are virtually the same. The original Japanese parents are unknown, but one breeder went with ki shusui and Yamanaka Ohya went with ayawakaba. All come from a cross of midori x midori but I'm guessing that the make-up of the midori will perhaps influence the markings.

      however, we know that what the fish looks like -- phenotype - is what the fish is called.
      i call yours ki shusui.

      Yamanaka Ohya called the fish that Russ shot and others in that batch, "ayawakaba." See the fresh new leaves crossing the dorsal ridge.

      The fish is called what it looks like.

      Here are photos are of my first generation ki shusui parents, bred here.

      The male is first. His zipper is not great, but he is being crossed with females with good zippers to consolidate best traits. One of the females has ki on her face which is also, not the most desirable but see her zipper and her skin and that she has lateral lines of ki. The third koi, also female. She had more ki in a lateral pattern earlier in life and it comes and goes, but sumi has not marred her skin. High points for this and fingers crossed!~ I think she is an asset to my breeding program.

      These three koi are full or half siblings and were 4.5 yrs old when photographed last october.

      Below that, is a photo of their kids at 4 mos old last october. They are second generation. You'll see both ki shusui and ayawaka in that batch. It is way too early to say, but I will be looking at the ones with white skin and showing some ki. I'm hoping by May, we will see more ki in a lateral pattern on white skin. (and of course with good bodies and skin)

      One of the things that spoils ki shusui as they age is sumi (inky color) rising and muddying the ki. good for you for finding one at all. You'll learn from this koi. And we'd like to see how she/he grows.

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      Last edited by Koigrl; 03-04-2018 at 09:33 PM.



      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




      Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

      Updated for the 2017 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

      Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
      https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

      If you're reading this, you're on Team Ki.
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    5. #5
      Euryth's Avatar
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      This variety is my unicorn - I have been chasing this variety down the moment I first saw pictures of it and have had THE worst time trying to find one. I've also been following Koigrl's journey for the last few years, and must say I've been pulled in more and more with each photo she posts of her babies!

      As for the OP, I wish I had more to offer but I believe all the voices so far on this thread have more than adequately handled the topic. I'm not sure I have much more to add!

    6. #6
      My2butterflies is offline Senior Member
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      Ugh, I love yellow koi. Koigrl I wish you weren’t so far away! Love those babies!

      Op I have nothing useful to add, but that is a nice koi in my book

    7. #7
      Koigrl's Avatar
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      thank you!
      i don't want to jinx myself, but our friend bindi, formerly hung out here, was also working on a ki project; ki kumonryu. she said by next generation i'll have ki shusui coming out of my ears. friends of ki, hang in. cross fingers. there may be a grow out project in 2010 or 2021.



      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




      Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

      Updated for the 2017 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

      Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
      https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

      If you're reading this, you're on Team Ki.
      Kichi loves company. Max


      K-POTY 2013

    8. #8
      DanG is offline Junior Member
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    9. #9
      Euryth's Avatar
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      Based on the last photo, the Shusui on the top is most definitely the best of the three. I'm by no means an expert so please take everything I say with a grain of salt! This Shusui has the best skin of the three in my opinion, but I'm not 100% sure on the conformation. It looks to me like the head is clear, a bit pointy and short, but that could also appear that way since the photo seems to be at an angle. The body line appears to be nice, but the last 1/3 of the koi appears to be short to me.

      As for the beni, I've heard that beni in the pectoral fins is a sign suggesting strong beni, but there seems to be a bit of fading or breaking towards the caudal fin. I also think I see some trouble areas of beni on the shoulders/lateral lines. The beni in the one eye may also be looked at negatively for show purposes, and it would be great if that small piece of beni connecting the maruten marking disappeared. Lastly, the zipper on this Shusui is relatively uniform without stray sumi and smudging.

      The middle Shusui may have decent or better skin (hard for me to evaluate personally without other colors present), the head and body is smudged with stray sumi throughout, and the zipper is uniform and pretty wide. I like the bodyline on this fish better than the other two and I get the impression that this is a female as well. I see what looks to be a speck of remaining beni left on the left side of this fish, so I'm assuming "she" experienced some major beni loss. This koi would be an ideal candidate for rehoming if that may be your intention.

    10. #10
      Russell Peters's Avatar
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      When I look at Aya Wakaba and a true Ki Shusui I can see a difference in the color. Aya Wakaba is more of an ‘apricot’ color and Ki Shusui is more of a clean yellow and this is the distinction I make between them.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    11. #11
      jimfish98's Avatar
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      Burnt yellow like a bad shusui is burnt orange/red. It’s like an aya wakaba is a poor mans ki shusui



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      Just because its not a Great Koi doesn't mean its not a Great Koi...Me circa 2013

    12. #12
      Koigrl's Avatar
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      Russ, here's a flashback to the other ayawakabas you saw and photographed at yamanaka ohya. I bought a few ayas from Y.O. in 2009. I still have a couple.

      edit: here's the bowl with the ayawabas, some midori and a chag.
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      Last edited by Koigrl; 03-05-2018 at 12:03 AM.



      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




      Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

      Updated for the 2017 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

      Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
      https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

      If you're reading this, you're on Team Ki.
      Kichi loves company. Max


      K-POTY 2013

    13. #13
      Koigrl's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by jimfish98 View Post
      Burnt yellow like a bad shusui is burnt orange/red. Itís like an aya wakaba is a poor mans ki shusui
      jim, remember wayne1? he called that clear lemon yellow on a kishusui "atomic." why i'm looking for white ground on my kids is because ki shows up better on white than on a blue ground color.

      re: pattern: from what i've learned about this, ki shusui should be judged by shusui show standards. (except the color, of course!)



      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




      Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

      Updated for the 2017 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

      Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
      https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

      If you're reading this, you're on Team Ki.
      Kichi loves company. Max


      K-POTY 2013

    14. #14
      DanG is offline Junior Member
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      The middle never had any color other than what you can see in the picture. I am thinking of selling all three to a local hobbiest in the near future. I just want to make sure I am not letting something go that would be very hard to replace or might turn into something of greater value.
      Last edited by DanG; 03-06-2018 at 07:20 PM.

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