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  • Results 1 to 10 of 10

    Thread: Pump inlet height

    1. #1
      BZIMMER is offline Senior Member
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      Pump inlet height

      Is there a height that all the self priming pumps usually run for the inlet? I am building a filter and Im not 100% sure what pump im going to run. I have a pentair intelliflo XF new pump, but im thinking about running 2 smaller sequence pumps. I just need to know what height to put the outlets on the side of my filter right now.

      Thanks.

    2. #2
      MCAsan's Avatar
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      Depends on the design of the pumps, especially the volute that houses the impeller.

      The volute of a centrifugal pump is the casing that receives the fluid being pumped by the impeller, slowing down the fluid's rate of flow. A volute is a curved funnel that increases in area as it approaches the discharge port. The volute converts kinetic energy into pressure by reducing speed while increasing pressure, helping to balance the hydraulic pressure on the shaft of the pump.

    3. #3
      RichToyBox's Avatar
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      For best results the pump intake should be below the level of the water within the filter, ie flooded suction. Many of the pumps with prefilter basket, and using a check valve will lift water to some minimal distance. The suction head is felt much more than the pressure head, reducing flow with little suction head more than similar or even multiple times the pressure head.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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    4. #4
      BZIMMER is offline Senior Member
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      Basically im making a Stainless steel Pressurized Sieve like a zakki sieve, the outlets on the filter will be under water and will have elbows facing down on the inside so the will be drawing right off the bottom. Im just looking for advice in the height as it pertains to how high to put them if the pump is sitting on the ground right next to it. I didn't know if they were mostly the same height. I haven't had a self priming sequence or evolution pump in my possession to compare.

    5. #5
      Zac Penn's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by RichToyBox View Post
      For best results the pump intake should be below the level of the water within the filter, ie flooded suction. Many of the pumps with prefilter basket, and using a check valve will lift water to some minimal distance. The suction head is felt much more than the pressure head, reducing flow with little suction head more than similar or even multiple times the pressure head.
      Hey Rich,
      Have you found sources that actually explain why this is the case? I have always heard it, and have said it multiple times, but Lee at PerformancePro pumps doesn't agree with it. He has told me that head pressure doesn't matter which side of the pump it is on. I don't have sources either way that explain their reasoning so I was hoping you knew of something that explained if in fact suction head acts on the flow curve differently than positive pressure.
      Zac Penn.... Not an expert on Pump Testing, no matter what people may think!
      904-288-6199
      Zac@DeepwaterKoi.com
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    6. #6
      Zac Penn's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by BZIMMER View Post
      Basically im making a Stainless steel Pressurized Sieve like a zakki sieve, the outlets on the filter will be under water and will have elbows facing down on the inside so the will be drawing right off the bottom. Im just looking for advice in the height as it pertains to how high to put them if the pump is sitting on the ground right next to it. I didn't know if they were mostly the same height. I haven't had a self priming sequence or evolution pump in my possession to compare.

      Well that is flattering I guess I use 9" OC because I designed the Zakki Sieve around the PerformancePro Artesian pumps. Other manufacturers are different, so if you want it to line up then you need to pick a pump before welding on the suction pipe.
      Zac Penn.... Not an expert on Pump Testing, no matter what people may think!
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      Zac@DeepwaterKoi.com
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    7. #7
      RichToyBox's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Zac Penn View Post
      Hey Rich,
      Have you found sources that actually explain why this is the case? I have always heard it, and have said it multiple times, but Lee at PerformancePro pumps doesn't agree with it. He has told me that head pressure doesn't matter which side of the pump it is on. I don't have sources either way that explain their reasoning so I was hoping you knew of something that explained if in fact suction head acts on the flow curve differently than positive pressure.
      I don't have sources, just what I had heard over the years. I do know that most of the pumps will stall out at about 20' of pressure head, and none will lift water that high, so the suction head is different than the pressure head, I just don't know for sure how much. If we are talking a pump that is within a foot of the surface of the pond, it may not be very measurable, but I do think it would cause a pump to stall at less than the 20' total head from pond surface to stall point.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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    8. #8
      Zac Penn's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by RichToyBox View Post
      I don't have sources, just what I had heard over the years. I do know that most of the pumps will stall out at about 20' of pressure head, and none will lift water that high, so the suction head is different than the pressure head, I just don't know for sure how much. If we are talking a pump that is within a foot of the surface of the pond, it may not be very measurable, but I do think it would cause a pump to stall at less than the 20' total head from pond surface to stall point.

      I am not trying to argue on this point so don't take my response as that, but I don't think i have seen references to the suction limitations of water pumps. I have seen numbers stating the maximum "self priming" elevations on the suction side which is usually between 5-10' on most models. I have always wanted to do comparative flow testing with the restriction on the suction side and pressure side of the pump and see how the numbers are effected, but I haven't had the time or equipment to do that. Now that i am doing the pump testing station and have an ultrasonic flow meter, I just might perform this testing when I get some free time. I think that would be pretty good for the hobby to either confirm or bust this statement.
      Zac Penn.... Not an expert on Pump Testing, no matter what people may think!
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    9. #9
      RichToyBox's Avatar
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      Agreed. Data would be much better.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

      Zone 7 A/B
      Keep your words sweet. You never know when you may have to eat them.
      Richard

    10. #10
      carlso's Avatar
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      Rich & Zac

      I don't "know it all" but would like to share my experiences with head and discharge pressures.

      First, I gained my experience by being a Supervising Dispatcher for Chevron Pipe Line Co. in El Paso, Texas control center. We remotely operated 4 lines with a total of approx. 900 miles that included 4 originating pump stations and on the Albuquerque products line we had 4 booster stations. Yes, I am talking oil products but liquids never the less. Many of our stations had 800-1,000 HP motors spinning 12 stage Bingham PD pumps.

      These stations were all remotely controlled but had remote controllers to set the rate of flow. Suction side of pump was always set between 35#-40#'s, that meant that when a controller detected a fall in "head" pressure to 35# and below, the set point would take control and slow the pump down to stop any cavitating, etc. from happening. That also slowed the discharge pressure and rate of flow. There were also controllers for discharge pressure as well as motor amps. A typical station would maybe be running with 40-50 #'s suction pressure, pump #'s of 2,600, and finally discharge of 2,160 #'s in an 8" pipeline. A side note is that the motor amps and discharge pressure controllers, if exceeding their set points, would take control and pinch down on the suction valve to reduce either one to the normal operating pressures. Could be a real balancing act with changes in the different products such as mogas , diesel, jet fuel coming into a station.

      That is a rather circuitous route to take to say that yes head pressure will and does effect the rate of flow. That's one reason you do not want to put a ball valve on suction line. It would cause cavitation and ware out the vanes. That is why we put ball valves on discharge side so we can slow down the flow rate to keep from out pumping the incoming flow. The only difference between that and my scenario is that we have to manually change the set point by adjusting the valve.

      I could argue with your pump expert. All I can say is "been there,done that". Nothing like a 1,000HP GE motor spinning a 12 stage Bingham pump.
      Of course I retired in 1996 and today they probably have much higher technology equipment to work with but the knowing oil companies I doubt that. Cost you know.

      Just wanted to share my past a bit,
      Carl
      Carl Sowell


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