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    Thread: New fish from KHV-infected breeder

    1. #1
      nishikigoi21's Avatar
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      New fish from KHV-infected breeder

      Hi, I purchased that problematic Kin Showa earlier in the month. KHV, carp pox, parasites...Whatever it was, I may have been overreacting.
      That same day, I also picked up a tiny 4" Gin Shiro Utsuri from the same dealer(different breeder), but I just found out that the breeder of the Gin Shiro, was reported with KHV last year.

      Now I have reason to panic!

      I wasn't paying much attention on this little guy, but I feel the eyes are sinking in? The bottom of the right eye appears flush to the socket.
      And there definitely is a notch in the nose.

      The tank has been heated at 78F since the day of purchase, and I haven't been feeding at all. Can a nose notch happen from malnutrition?
      I read that KHV is most active between 60-77F so I reduced the temperature to about 75F and also started feeding.
      And I thought the virus kills it's host within days once active...why is this fish still alive?

      What's the next measure I can take to make KHV symptoms come out, if it actually has it?
      I've mailed UC Davis to see if I can drive up there for a blood test, but are there any other institutes that I could try for a quick test result?


      ...This is quite devastating since I was about to introduce these two to the main herd next week. I actually have 3 total from this KHV-infected breeder. One was purchased last summer and has been with the herd since. The other was purchased just a month ago(same dealer as this Kin Showa & Gin Shiro) and is now with the main herd.
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      Last edited by nishikigoi21; 02-24-2018 at 07:19 PM.

    2. #2
      Koigrl's Avatar
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      Nishikigoi, i can imagine how you're feeling. So sorry. you're doing the right thing with the heated water. and of course keep them quarantined. I would check with UCDavis if they will test live fish before you make the drive. i vaguely remember speaking with them 8 years ago or so and at that time. they wanted dead fish only. Pls. keep us posted. Hoping someone with more knowledge will check in soon.



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    3. #3
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      Nishikigoi21, I have emails on KHV from my correspondence with Drs. Weber and Goodwin at UCDavis. I've sent you a p.m.



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    4. #4
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      Quote Originally Posted by Koigrl View Post
      Nishikigoi, i can imagine how you're feeling. So sorry. you're doing the right thing with the heated water. and of course keep them quarantined. I would check with UCDavis if they will test live fish before you make the drive. i vaguely remember speaking with them 8 years ago or so and at that time. they wanted dead fish only. Pls. keep us posted. Hoping someone with more knowledge will check in soon.
      Yes it was unfortunate but a koi dealer had to put down a nice koi to send sample to uc Davis. Of course I bought ki from this dealer and lost many koi as well after getting some from him.

    5. #5
      RichToyBox's Avatar
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      Do you have a scope so that you can scrape and scope? Costia will cause the notch in the nose and the sunken eyes as well as KHV and is just as deadly.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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    6. #6
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      Thanks Koigrl, I replied to the PM.

      To Rich; Although I can't be sure without a scope, I doubt it's costia since I've already given this tank about 5 shots of Proform-C so far. And each being a 1.5X the recommended dose.


      At which stage does the skin & gill start looking nasty?
      Aside from the nose-notch, flat-looking eyes, and "pimple" that keeps coming back on the tail...it looks, swims, and eats normally.

      And did I mention already that I have in my main pond, a Kohaku that was in the same display tank(also the same breeder) as this Gin Shiro? This Kohaku has been with the main herd for about a month now and for the past 10 days they've been in a heated QT(78F)

      IF the Gin Shiro has KHV, does that automatically make the ex-tankmate Kohaku a carrier as well? Or does the virus only spread to other fish under the "right" condition? I thought I read something like that somewhere...
      I remember the dealer's tank being in the mid-high 60's
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    7. #7
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      The university of Oregon is able to test for KHV on a live fish. I think they can do it with a slim coat sample now. Dr. Jing(?) has been working on this as well as KHV research for about a decade. She was one of the vets associated with helping in the recent Kodama Problem. You can check to see what they might need for a sample and how to transport. Of course UC Davis is in your back yard.

      At one time I also had fish dying with notched noses. I took 5 fish to OSU to be sacrificed. NO KHV was found in any of them. Some of the fish were "healthy" and two had lesions and an ulcer. So don't get fixated on KHV until proven. Test certainly but slow down and take a breath and proceed with measured caution. The Kohaku is probably a carrier if it has survived and you truly have KHV. As I am pretty sure some of the virus would have shed from this fish. Getting rid of a fish is certainly good insurance. Plus you would know if it has potentially spread into the pond.

      Good Luck

    8. #8
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      UC Davis will test live fish as well. I used to have them come to my store and draw blood for testing. None of my fish were ever killed.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    9. #9
      Koigrl's Avatar
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      Perhaps house call vs long distance receipt and return of live animal from 3000 miles away made the difference. We got raves for our packaging of dead fish~! then went to a veterinarian who drew blood and sent samples.



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    10. #10
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      Quote Originally Posted by RichToyBox View Post
      Do you have a scope so that you can scrape and scope? Costia will cause the notch in the nose and the sunken eyes as well as KHV and is just as deadly.
      Costia as well as most parasite,bacterial,viral,genetic, malnurishement can cause the notch on the nose. Many koi have died from costia and khv WITHOUT a notch behind the nose area.

      Costia is an opportunistic parasite and can kill one koi only in a pond and not affect the others. KHV however is not as forgiving in many ways. So it is a lot worse than Costia.

      I seriously doubt you have khv.
      Last edited by kdh; 03-01-2018 at 10:41 AM.

    11. #11
      kntry's Avatar
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      How did you use the ProFormC? You said you did 1.5 times the amount but did you do a water change, add the med and do this for 3 days in a row, skip a day, wc and treat, skip a day, wc and treat? Or did you do 1.5 times, wait 5 days and do another? What was the water temp when you did the treatment/?

      I'm in agreement with the others that I doubt this is KHV.
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    12. #12
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      Which other illnesses, other than KHV cause the notched nose?

      This could really be misleading.

      I have always been lead to believe the sunken eyes and notched nose were the main indications of KHV.

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      Last edited by coolwon; 03-02-2018 at 09:50 AM.
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    13. #13
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      Those symptoms are caused by dehydration. An advanced case of Costia can do the same thing.
      Sandy
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    14. #14
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      False Alarm

      I contacted a few Japanese brokers and the Ministry of Agriculture, Forestry, and Fisheries of Japan. I have yet to hear back from some of them but it seems the rumor regarding the breeder of the Gin Shiro Utsuri was FALSE. I never did end up testing my fish but the 2 newcomers were in a heated tank with the main herd for a couple of days and are all doing great.

      I apologize for the confusion and if I made anybody anxious...

      But please be aware since KHV is still around and there were 7 cases of KHV reported in Niigata last year(1 farm, 1 public park, 5 hobbyists)
      http://www.pref.niigata.lg.jp/suisan/1215457295621.html

    15. #15
      Koigrl's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by nishikigoi21 View Post
      I contacted a few Japanese brokers and the Ministry of Agriculture, Forestry, and Fisheries of Japan. I have yet to hear back from some of them but it seems the rumor regarding the breeder of the Gin Shiro Utsuri was FALSE. I never did end up testing my fish but the 2 newcomers were in a heated tank with the main herd for a couple of days and are all doing great.

      I apologize for the confusion and if I made anybody anxious...

      But please be aware since KHV is still around and there were 7 cases of KHV reported in Niigata last year(1 farm, 1 public park, 5 hobbyists)
      http://www.pref.niigata.lg.jp/suisan/1215457295621.html
      Kent, great news for you! Thanks for letting us know how it all turned out. And as you say, another reminder to quarantine!



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      Good news, thank you
      My opinions in ER and on this forum are mine only. Use my advice at your own discretion.

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      Quote Originally Posted by kntry View Post
      Those symptoms are caused by dehydration. An advanced case of Costia can do the same thing.
      I don't want to sound arrogant but how does a fish become dehydrated?lol

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      Quote Originally Posted by nishikigoi21 View Post
      I don't want to sound arrogant but how does a fish become dehydrated?lol
      osmotic balance issues.
      https://www.petmd.com/fish/care/evr_fi_osmoregulation
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      Quote Originally Posted by kntry View Post
      Those symptoms are caused by dehydration. An advanced case of Costia can do the same thing.
      Quote Originally Posted by nishikigoi21 View Post
      I don't want to sound arrogant but how does a fish become dehydrated?lol
      That's a very good question. From what I understand freshwater fish is more at risk of over hydration when they are sick. From searching I could not find any scientific evidence that sunken eyes or a notched nose to be signs of 'dehydration.' Water tends to want to diffuse into freshwater fish because of their higher osmotic pressures. Fish spend a lot of energy (ATP expenditures from running protein pumps etc.) regulating osmotic pressures thereby keeping water from entering the gills and by diluting urine in their kidneys (so that the water that does get in gets pumped out). So when these organs fail they tend to swell up (a very late sign we see in dropsy).
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    20. #20
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      I have, if no one else, referred to it as dehydration. The normal condition of the fish is eyes are in a normal position, scales are laying down, and the fish has a decent slime coat. If the kidneys fail, the eyes will be popped out, the scales will stand out, and this if from what would be called over hydration as there is too much water within the fish. Many times this over hydration is accompanied by a large ulcer, breaking the membrane that separates the pond from the fishes 0.9% salinity causing water to want to flood into the fish to equalize the salinity. If the eyes popping out is a sign of over hydration, then sunken eyes must be from dehydration. The fact that the notch forms in the nose is easily seen, but the entire fish is smaller, again from dehydration. With costia, there will be little or no slime coat, as the costia consume it and are attacking the fish, pulling nutrients through the skin. The exact cause may not be dehydration, but it resembles a fish that has been laid out on the deck to dry.

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