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  • Results 1 to 18 of 18

    Thread: Raised Bloody Scale :(

    1. #1
      nishikigoi21's Avatar
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      Raised Bloody Scale :(

      I moved all of my fish from the pond into a heated quarantine tank in the garage a week ago, to perform a shotgun treatment to prepare the fish for Spring.

      Today I noticed a black smudge on the head of my creme-colored Ogon. It also had a bit of redness on it's left pectoral fin.
      I pulled the fish out, and to my horror I find this on the right side of it's body...

      Hard to tell in the pictures but the scales on the big red area is raised. The throat area is also red, like a rash.
      Is my fish getting eaten alive by parasites or is it an ulcer in-the-making?


      ......Prior to moving the herd into the quarantine, this fish had been flashing for some time in the pond, along with it clamping it's left pec occasionally.
      After a scrape & scope, we found a single piece of trichodina.

      So far the QT tank has received about 5 shots of Proform-C(4 consecutive days + 1 after 5 days of Hikari Prazipro) at 78F.
      A lot of the fish were flashing after I dosed the tank with Prazi, but none of the others show similar symptoms to this Ogon.


      Can trichodina and/or other parasites cause this? I don't think I saw anything like worms or lice.
      Or is this a simple injury caused from the flashing?
      Last edited by nishikigoi21; 09-03-2018 at 01:51 AM.

    2. #2
      RichToyBox's Avatar
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      That does look like it is potentially going to become an ulcer. I would take a wait and see approach. The parasites should have been taken care of. The fish's immune system could very well take care of this. If it gets worse, get some antibiotics and treat.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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      audioenvy is online now Supporting Member
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      Is there anything the fish could have hit itself against when flashing? Or did you have any extra difficulty bringing it from the pond into QT?

    4. #4
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      For the raised scale, if it continues to develop, I would classify it as bacterial, and Proform C is a parasite treatment. Elbagin is used for bacterial type problems, but I have no experience with it. I like Tricide-Neo as a topical or as a spray for bacterial infections. I am not sure that the infection is sufficiently advanced to keep stressing the fish to treat, but should definitely be monitored.

      Proform C is used in 3 doses with the last dose having Prazi added to treat parasites in what is called a shotgun treatment. It is good for people that do not have a microscope to get a positive ID on what is eating the fish, as it kills all of the parasites that are too small to be seen with the naked eye. Unless you have signs/symptoms of parasites bothering the fish, like flashing, clamping, breaching, isolating, or other strange actions, I would not stress the fish with the harsh chemicals. When needed, they are good, but "just because" is not a good enough reason.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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    5. #5
      audioenvy is online now Supporting Member
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      You could inexpensively treat your entire QT tank with Chloramine-T as an anti-bacterial without adding further netting stress--but you may just want to take a wait-and-see approach.

    6. #6
      icu2's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by RichToyBox View Post
      For the raised scale, if it continues to develop, I would classify it as bacterial, and Proform C is a parasite treatment. Elbagin is used for bacterial type problems, but I have no experience with it. I like Tricide-Neo as a topical or as a spray for bacterial infections. I am not sure that the infection is sufficiently advanced to keep stressing the fish to treat, but should definitely be monitored.

      Proform C is used in 3 doses with the last dose having Prazi added to treat parasites in what is called a shotgun treatment. It is good for people that do not have a microscope to get a positive ID on what is eating the fish, as it kills all of the parasites that are too small to be seen with the naked eye. Unless you have signs/symptoms of parasites bothering the fish, like flashing, clamping, breaching, isolating, or other strange actions, I would not stress the fish with the harsh chemicals. When needed, they are good, but "just because" is not a good enough reason.
      I used Tricide Neo spray and had very good results.
      --Steve
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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      I used Tricide Neo spray and had very good results.
      I've dipped with it but haven't sprayed. Do you just net the fish, spray it on, and return to the water?

    8. #8
      icu2's Avatar
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      Yes, spray and then let it work for a couple of minutes and return to the water once a week.

      Example:

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      The red scales that remain is actually from an injury when the vet was taking a blood sample.

      I mixed a quart (more than enough) and it's still in the fridge. From what I've read it'll last about 1 year.
      --Steve
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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      I mixed a quart (more than enough) and it's still in the fridge. From what I've read it'll last about 1 year.
      What strength did you mix for use as a spray?

    10. #10
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      Quote Originally Posted by audioenvy View Post
      What strength did you mix for use as a spray?
      Same as the instructions on the package: 5.5 grams tricide neo to 1 quart of distilled water.
      --Steve
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    11. #11
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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      Same as the instructions on the package: 5.5 grams tricide neo to 1 quart of distilled water.
      This surprises me. I don't see a spray that is no more concentrated than the dip being anywhere near as effective as an actual dip. If I dip the entire fish for 5 minutes in something that is just as concentrated as something that I spray on topically it is going to be much more effective than the spray, isn't it? In addition, unless the ulcer or infection is on the very top of the fish I can't leave the area exposed to air for 5 minutes without at a minimum causing a lot of stress or anesthetizing the fish. And if I have to put the fish under then it seems like that defeats the entire purpose.

      I could be wrong about the above--I'm just thinking out loud. I've heard of people dabbing the straight TCN powder on the wound but maybe that only works in an anesthetized scenario?

    12. #12
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      Could be. But to dip the fish I'd need to mix a minimum of 5 gallons. I needed to treat her multiple
      times which at 110 grams per treatment could add up quickly compared to 5.5 grams which was more
      than enough to treat through the whole process. It seemed that the spray worked well using it like a
      dip (topically) but in a concentrated area.

      Personally I anesthetize most every time I have to work on a fish and don't see it as much of an issue
      anymore. Not worth the extra expense of trying to do a dip just to avoid it imo.

      I've used it as a paste too and I'd agree that in the case of a deeper ulcer it might work better but
      in this case where it seemed to not be very deep and a larger area, the spray seemed to work well.
      As in most things, your mileage may vary.
      --Steve
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    13. #13
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      Neosporin has the same three ingredients as tricide neo , thanks to Russ for sharing that info .
      I've had success treating ulcers using Russ's recommended treatment.
      1. Anesthetize the fish.
      2. Dry the area.
      3. Apply Neosporin
      4. Wait 5 minutes
      5. Wipe off the Neosporin
      6. Place the fish in a bowl till it wakes up
      7. Return the fish to the QT or pond

      The fish will easily survive the 5 minutes out of water. If they wake up early , just hold them down gently so that they don't hurt themselves . Always wipe off the Neosporin , as it is a very strong antibacterial, and can harm a bio filter . The same goes for tricide neo , it can harm a bio filter as well . Placing the fish in a bowl before returning it to the QT or pond will help to wash off and dilute the antibacterial .
      I minimize the amount of anesthetic or dip medication needed , by using a fish bag to hold and dose the fish. A 30" fish can be treated with only two gallons of water this way.

    14. #14
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      Quote Originally Posted by catfish whiskers View Post
      Neosporin has the same three ingredients as tricide neo , thanks to Russ for sharing that info .
      I've had success treating ulcers using Russ's recommended treatment.
      1. Anesthetize the fish.
      2. Dry the area.
      3. Apply Neosporin
      4. Wait 5 minutes
      5. Wipe off the Neosporin
      6. Place the fish in a bowl till it wakes up
      7. Return the fish to the QT or pond

      The fish will easily survive the 5 minutes out of water. If they wake up early , just hold them down gently so that they don't hurt themselves . Always wipe off the Neosporin , as it is a very strong antibacterial, and can harm a bio filter . The same goes for tricide neo , it can harm a bio filter as well . Placing the fish in a bowl before returning it to the QT or pond will help to wash off and dilute the antibacterial .
      I minimize the amount of anesthetic or dip medication needed , by using a fish bag to hold and dose the fish. A 30" fish can be treated with only two gallons of water this way.
      Nice post Mr Whistkers and great case scenario by ICU2; thanks. Hopefully I'm not derailing this post by asking a couple of questions. One is how many times to treat (dip, topical or spray), and would that be daily, every other day, or weekly? I've seen pictures in other threads with similar reddening pattern on the back of the koi where they suspected internal infection and where they thought that the only way to save the fish was through injectable antibiotics. Using such a fish in post #11, for example, how can one (sort of) tell whether the infection is just skin deep or systemic?
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    15. #15
      icu2's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by KoiRun View Post
      Nice post Mr Whistkers and great case scenario by ICU2; thanks. Hopefully I'm not derailing this post by asking a couple of questions. One is how many times to treat (dip, topical or spray), and would that be daily, every other day, or weekly? I've seen pictures in other threads with similar reddening pattern on the back of the koi where they suspected internal infection and where they thought that the only way to save the fish was through injectable antibiotics. Using such a fish in post #11, for example, how can one (sort of) tell whether the infection is just skin deep or systemic?
      For transparency, the whole treatment path of the fish I posted was that I took her to a vet to get his opinion and he thought it was
      bacterial but told me it was a bit of a guess without a blood draw. He gave me 5 injections of 1.5ml of Ceftazidime (Fortaz) to be injected
      every 3rd day. After finishing the injections she looked no different and maybe a little worse. I returned and he did a blood draw
      and it came back as not bacterial so he said to watch and see if it improved. That's when I started the spray treatments and did
      them once every 2 or 3 days.
      I probably used the wrong term when I said "deep" but meant more of a specific sore that looks infected as opposed to a "rash" look.
      But in my mind the only sure way of telling exactly what you're dealing with is to have a blood draw, which isn't available to
      everyone.
      --Steve
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    16. #16
      icu2's Avatar
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      A post made by RickF about her that might help the OP and seconds the use of Neosporin too:

      A bacterial infection of the skin would not lead to bacteria in the blood until there was a severe ulcer. Also, the topical treatment with Tricide Neo would be more effective than the systemic treatment with ceftazidime. The blood supply to the surface of the skin is not great enough for the systemic antibiotic to reach the site of the infection. Although I have never tried it, I always wonder if topical treatment with Neosporin ointment would not be just as effective (and far less expensive and far easier to obtain) than topical treatment with Tricide Neo.
      --Steve
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    17. #17
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      Makes perfect sense, thanks. Again, I'm not trying to derail treatment recommendations here. From my searches, what I think to picture of Steve's fish is showing (correct me if I'm wrong) is possible sign of that of columnaris disease, and the redness pattern is that of what they call "saddle-back" where the red lesions start near the base of the dorsal fin and extends laterally. After a few days of antibiotic treatments, a blood culture would most likely be negative and different antibiotic can have different penetration capability with different tissues and there would certainly be a lag phase in reaching the outer skin tissues of fish. It would have been pretty awesome if the vet drew the blood first (blood culture I'm assuming) before the treatments and turn out identifying a particular bacteria. I'm learning a lot from Rich, ICU2, and catfish whiskers, again, thank you.
      Last edited by KoiRun; 02-25-2018 at 05:14 PM.

    18. #18
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      When I did the spray treatment, I had done the dip a couple of times previously. With the dip, supposedly you could strain the dip through a coffee filter to get most of the slime coat that fouls the dip, and then refrigerate for the next days dip. You put the 5 gallons of dip in the refrigerator and then the next day you have to take it out, warm it to near pond temperature and repeat. The cost of the Tricide Neo is not something that you could do the 5 gallon dip new every day on very many occasions. I did the clove oil to put the fish under, then held the fish in an empty bowl and would keep the fish wet with the spray for the 5 minutes that the dip was supposed to be applied, figuring the fish would take in as much through the continuous spray as a dip, as long as both kept the fish wetted with the antibiotic. At the end, the fish was rinsed and returned to the pond. The quart size spray bottle would refrigerate much easier, not taking up so much space, and wouldn't require much if any warming before use, and would not be fowled by the slime coat sloughing off into it. As Steve said, a quart goes a long ways sprayed on, and 5 gallons is not a lot when you are trying to swim a 24 or 25" fish, even in a bag.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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