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  • Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
    Results 21 to 40 of 72

    Thread: Central Florida Koi Show Pump Off!

    1. #21
      lukef's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by BWG View Post
      To be fair to the manufacture motor name plate info including motor efficiency should be included. Newer pumps typically have higher efficiency motors than older models so if the pump tested has some age to it the flow output might be satisfactory using a lower efficiency motor drawing more watts. The model currently being sold might have a higher efficiency motor.

      Line voltage will impact pump performance (flow and watts) and must also be recorded. Often at shows such as this it might be on the low side. Knowing the test voltage allows for some level of estimate adjustment for a consumer at home.

      Using a meter such as a Kill A Watt for power the Watt reading should be used and recorded. It is real power and what directly relates to your actual electric bill. VA or multiplying volts X amps is apparent power and slightly different. The Kill A Watt meter will show both.

      Last - if the motor has a speed control compare the Kill A Watt readings to the motors speed control readout. Some speed controls show only the motor electric usage and don't show controller losses added in. Controller losses can be as high as 10% for some controllers at some speeds. The Kill A Watt meter will be the correct Watts.
      You Need To Be one of the ones that helps keep this thing right.
      "Those aren't poodles. They're Dobermans with afros."

    2. #22
      tbullard is online now Senior Member
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      Surely a $17 kill a watt meter isn't going to qualify as appropriate testing equipment. Will need a Clamp on amp meter to measure amps and voltage to get an accurate Watts calculation. Watts=VoltsXAmps

      https://www.amazon.com/Fluke-323-Tru...p%2BMeter&th=1

      These are handy to avoid splitting the wires and also give you a place to check the Voltage while the pump is running.

      https://www.amazon.com/Amprobe-ELS2A...Y80V9VG0E4TQJB

    3. #23
      BWG is online now Senior Member
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      For small amps and 120 volts I have found the Kill A Watt meter more accurate than a good clamp on amp meter. It's not like years ago and even the lower cost test equipment is accurate now.
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      Last edited by BWG; 02-14-2018 at 10:31 PM.

    4. #24
      BWG is online now Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by tbullard View Post
      Surely a $17 kill a watt meter isn't going to qualify as appropriate testing equipment. Will need a Clamp on amp meter to measure amps and voltage to get an accurate Watts calculation. Watts=VoltsXAmps
      This is a calculation for VA (volt amps) and represents watts when calculated for a pure resistive load. The Kill A Watt meter displays both Watts and VA readings for loads such as a motor.
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      Last edited by BWG; 02-14-2018 at 08:59 AM.

    5. #25
      Zac Penn's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by BWG View Post
      This is a calculation for VA (volt amps) and represents watts when calculated for a pure resistive load. The Kill A Watt meter displays both Watts and VA readings for loads such as a motor.
      Will you ever stop contradicting me hahaha

      One thing that is a little confusing/interesting/ironic/I can't think of the right word here is the power factor and how it effects real work (Watts). Watts actually equals... Watts = Voltage X Amps X Power Factor.

      The power factor is a decimal number between 0 and 1 and can be referenced as efficiency % because the closer you get to 1 (100% efficient) the more work that actually gets completed by the electrical device. So in general an electric heater can be considered 100% efficient device (power factor of 1) because it converts all electrical power into heat work.
      So example... 120V X 10 Amps X 1 = 1,200 Watts

      Now motors are not 100% efficient at converting power into work so they have a lower power factor.
      So example... 120V x 10 Amps X .75 = 900 Watts

      You are billed based on your kilowatt-hours so the more Watts you use, the greater your electric bill. So, based on those examples above it seems logical to purchase a lower efficiency device because you will get billed less. But that logic is flawed because a more efficient device will do more work total than a less efficient device.
      Another example...A 1/4 HP water pump w/ 80% efficiency at 200 watts could be used to pump 4000 GPH, but 1/4 HP water pump w/ 70% efficiency at 180 watts could be used but it would only pump 3250 GPH. So you are will be billed less, but you will have less total water flow through your filtration.
      If you really needed 4000 GPH, and still used a pump with 70% efficiency, then you would need a 1/3 HP pump using 275 Watts of electricity. So now you are being billed more with the less efficient pump to get 4,000 GPH. If you only needed the 3250 GPH then you are better off using the less efficient 1/4 HP pump and spend less money.

      See, it is a little confusing/interesting/ironic/I can't think of the right word here
      Zac Penn.... Not an expert on Pump Testing, no matter what people may think!
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    6. #26
      BWG is online now Senior Member
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      No No No

      It's about recording a devices actual watts used in relationship to how it is actually recorded and billed to the consumer.

      Do not confuse a motors power factor with its efficiency. The higher the efficiency rating on a motor the better for a consumers electric bill.

      The two numbers (VA and Watts) will be close. Volts X Amps = Watts only on a pure resistive load. Loads such as motors have a power factor (voltage and current not in sync). The Kill A Watt meter displays both Watts and VA and a consumer is more interested in Watts.

      My EE degree is nearly 50 years ago so it's better to Google than for me to give a complete answer. (cobwebs)
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      Last edited by BWG; 02-14-2018 at 10:04 PM. Reason: Added photo

    7. #27
      BWG is online now Senior Member
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      I made a reference to age and efficiency because a pump model sold a few years ago might have a lower efficiency motor on it VS the exact same model number sold today. This is why the motors efficiency should be noted if known.

      The flow output numbers the pump was sold at would still be valid but the newer version might be more energy efficient.
      Last edited by BWG; 02-14-2018 at 02:08 PM.

    8. #28
      BWG is online now Senior Member
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      Here's some information from a Baldor 1/3 motor that shows power factor and efficiency ratings. Look how the power factor and efficiency shifts with loading. Full loading results in the highest efficiency (by design).
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      Last edited by BWG; 02-14-2018 at 05:18 PM.

    9. #29
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      Quote Originally Posted by BWG View Post
      No No No

      It's about recording a devices actual watts used in relationship to how it is actually recorded and billed to the consumer.

      Do not confuse a motors power factor with its efficiency. The higher the efficiency rating on a motor the better for a consumers electric bill.

      The two numbers (VA and Watts) will be close. Volts X Amps = Watts only on a pure resistive load. Loads such as motors have a power factor (voltage and current not in sync). The Kill A Watt meter displays both Watts and VA and a consumer is more interested in Watts.

      My EE degree is nearly 50 years ago so it's better to Google than for me to give a complete answer. (cobwebs)
      Please be prompt to the testing event
      "Those aren't poodles. They're Dobermans with afros."

    10. #30
      sick1166 is offline Junior Member
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      WHat time is the testing I need a new pump and look forward to this

    11. #31
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      After the show but before the banquet it seems. Don't expect to burst any bubbles as most external pumps vary upon the motor. Ie: marathon vs baldor and often comes out the same old thing. Other than that is will be a fun game and sub par equipment is being used. Enough said

    12. #32
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      Funny we agree with bwg testing on head pressure testing,etc.... But yet when he mentions realistic power numbers some get frustrated. Failure to accept reality to me?

    13. #33
      lukef's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by kevin32 View Post
      Funny we agree with bwg testing on head pressure testing,etc.... But yet when he mentions realistic power numbers some get frustrated. Failure to accept reality to me?
      KISS
      wouldn't keeping it simple be the best thing for OUR audience?
      And wouldn't that be those of you that know your sh!t discussing it ad nauseam in a small room with calculators, pocket protectors and your old college textbooks? Fluorescent lighting too.
      But doesn't it all boil down to gph/head/watts? Or something very close? Throwing gpm and amps in there is overload to most hobbyists, especially when you introduce amps and 220 and 3-phase?
      KISS
      "Those aren't poodles. They're Dobermans with afros."

    14. #34
      lukef's Avatar
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      That being said..
      BWG I was titillated by your photo and discussion of the information plate on the Baldor motor. I think several in the hobby would relish a presentation on just THAT topic..especially with a Q&A afterwards... that presentation would improve the hobby as well.... if you can not travel could you do a youtube Series? Collaborating with Zac might give it an even better impact because it would have a pond flow guy and a electric motor guy...
      "Those aren't poodles. They're Dobermans with afros."

    15. #35
      Pond,James_Pond's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by lukef View Post
      KISS
      wouldn't keeping it simple be the best thing for OUR audience?
      And wouldn't that be those of you that know your sh!t discussing it ad nauseam in a small room with calculators, pocket protectors and your old college textbooks? Fluorescent lighting too.
      But doesn't it all boil down to gph/head/watts? Or something very close? Throwing gpm and amps in there is overload to most hobbyists, especially when you introduce amps and 220 and 3-phase?
      KISS
      Yep.

      GPH produced by watts at head. That's all 99% of us would like to see.

      steve

    16. #36
      BWG is online now Senior Member
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      Possible test parameters?

      Just take a photo of the motor nameplate to record data for future reference. The most useful info from it will be HP and motor efficiency %. Absolutely needed if a comparison is wanted between older and newer models. Not fair to compare Watts if the newer model has a more efficient motor. Old motors might not have the efficiency listed.

      From the Kill A Watt meter Volts and Watts should be recorded.

      Set the pressure gauge to readout in inches or feet of H2O

      Set flowmeter for gallons per minute or hour.

      For the head pressure tests:
      1st - wide open - record head pressure, flow, watts and volts
      2nd - close valve to 5 ft head pressure - record head pressure, flow, watts and volts
      3rd - close valve to 10 ft head pressure - record head pressure, flow, watts and volts
      4th - close valve to 15 ft head pressure - record head pressure, flow, watts and volts

    17. #37
      Pond,James_Pond's Avatar
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      I'd rather see a pipe 5 feet tall spewing water out the top, but I guess using the pressure to deduce feet of head is okay.

      steve

    18. #38
      BWG is online now Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by lukef View Post
      KISS
      wouldn't keeping it simple be the best thing for OUR audience?
      And wouldn't that be those of you that know your sh!t discussing it ad nauseam in a small room with calculators, pocket protectors and your old college textbooks? Fluorescent lighting too.
      But doesn't it all boil down to gph/head/watts? Or something very close? Throwing gpm and amps in there is overload to most hobbyists, especially when you introduce amps and 220 and 3-phase?
      KISS
      Be careful or one of the old pond nerds will whack you with a Pickett aluminum slide rule with custom leather case! It got us to the moon and back!

      What's a calculator?
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    19. #39
      lukef's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Pond,James_Pond View Post
      I'd rather see a pipe 5 feet tall spewing water out the top, but I guess using the pressure to deduce feet of head is okay.

      steve
      ME TOO! and the fact will always remain that those of us in the hobby that don't believe devices are anything more than divisive wanna see water spewing..it is visceral, and what we go to...The Eye Test... the "WOW Factor"...but what zac has started is the first real step toward consumer protection within the hobby concerning "pond" pumps, and this should be embraced by those leading the hobby.
      "Those aren't poodles. They're Dobermans with afros."

    20. #40
      lukef's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by BWG View Post
      Be careful or one of the old pond nerds will whack you with a Pickett aluminum slide rule with custom leather case! It got us to the moon and back!

      What's a calculator?
      I got at least one of those hidden amongst my treasures in boxes in the garage.
      "Those aren't poodles. They're Dobermans with afros."

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