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  • Page 6 of 6 FirstFirst ... 3456
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    Thread: Kohaku shimmies

    1. #101
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      Quote Originally Posted by inazuma28 View Post
      If it were a government form i believe the answer would be (N/A) but like ive said before, just because there is no scientific study done or paper published does not mean it's false. It means we dont yet have the data. I think this belief has to do with hard water being "better" for sumi. I heard someone retell a conversation with a breeder. It went something like the tissue and scales are like baskets that can hold pigment and the water hardness allowed for a tighter weave of those basket fibers. If this is the case, than it makes sense on a theoretical basis.

      The real problem is our best souse of information is the breeders who gain knowledge through experience and then weave what they know into a hypothesis that we buy as truth. Remember when most medical professionals believed that small doses of radiation were therapeutic? But no one is going to fund a study on pigment cell propagation in koi.
      The basket weave analogy comes from writings in the Japanese koi magazines from 40 or so years ago. There were studies of sumi development performed by the Niigata fisheries institute long ago. (Although I am uncertain if the science of their studies would withstand full scrutiny today.) The findings were that silicon levels 'tighten the weave'. The calcium and magnesium measured when determining hardness were not identified as the important factors. Silicates were important. Soft water tends to have low silicate levels. Hard water tends to have higher silicate levels. However, not all hard water is the same. It depends on the soils through which the water has percolated. ...It is the old story from before World War II where breeders observed that some ponds were better than others in developing sumi. The 'sumi ponds' tended to be more sandy. Back then, of course, the koi were much less refined. Even the best sumi was weak by today's standards. Today's sumi is not so dependent on water components. The genetics advance and the learning of yesteryear has less relevance.

    2. #102
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      Marilyn, Russel, how did that discussion go?


      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    3. #103
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      Quote Originally Posted by DocJLo View Post
      Marilyn, Russel, how did that discussion go?


      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
      Were still working on it. Essentially, weve got two issues that need addressed with the source water: an ammonia reading of 1.42ppm and a high TDS situation. Our pH is 7.21 which on its own is great but complicates the ammonia removal.
      As soon as we decide the route were going to go we will share our decision.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    4. #104
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      Quote Originally Posted by Rob Forbis View Post
      Apparently kichi are willing to invest a lot of time and money treating hard pond water to prevent shimis. So if someone could please fill in the blank for me a newbie:

      The reason that I know that hard water causes shimis is ___________________________.

      Thanks
      Because hard water doesn't cause shimis,
      You're Welcome.
      Last edited by Orlando; 1 Day Ago at 06:12 PM.

    5. #105
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      Who has been misleading me all these years telling me it's a genetic problem.

      My very first Matsunoskue Kohaku developed a shimis.

      I wonder if it was a Matsunoskue? I bought it from Peter Waddington.

      I believe Durban water is very soft.

      So, could it be genetic?

      Garfield.
      Find more about Weather in Durban, ZA

    6. #106
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      I will give you a hint of not being genetic, been told many times(she has blue eye brows don't feel bad when you see shimis, my kohaku was 3 on 2011 and my water changes are heavy no shimis.
      Last edited by Orlando; 1 Day Ago at 06:57 PM.

    7. #107
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      I’m not against shimi potentially having a genetic component with two qualifiers; I’ve seen Kohaku from many different breeders and bloodlines develop them plus I’ve seen Kohaku without any eye or eyelid coloration develop them and when I remove them they do not behave the way Sumi coloration does. They are not deep rooted but rather a collection of dark cells (?) situated on the top or underside of a scale.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    8. #108
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      So if you release a fish with shimmy into a pond with optimal water parameters, is the shimmy issue going to resolve itself?

    9. #109
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      I have seen shimmies come and go on Kohaku with no difference in the pond or the water. Go figure.

    10. #110
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      Any link between food and shimmies?

    11. #111
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      Quote Originally Posted by abuchi123 View Post
      Any link between food and shimmies?
      I'm feeding Saki hikari and got my shimmies. Mark feeds the same food and has no shimmies in his newer kohaku, so I'd say not really the food

    12. #112
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      For what it's worth, I had one as well on the first Kohaku, a lower grade SFF koi, I ever owned. Bought her at 6 inches from a dealer at the Central Florida Koi Show a few years back, grew her to about 10.5 inches in extended QT without issue. Got her to 18 inches in bigger water, but during that time she developed a shimi and it sort of went away on its own There were times when I thought other fish had them, but turned out to just be some carpet algae stuck to their slime coat that eventually fell off.

      I ended up rehoming her though at my club's auction last April so I'm sure she's probably huge by now lol. Here's her old critique thread: http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...ght=SFF+Kohaku

      Last time I checked my KH & GH over the weekend, they both were either 5 or 6 degrees using the API drop test kits. I've always fed a mix of Saki Hikari Growth, Saki Hikari Multi-season, Tomigai Tategoi, Hikari Wheat Germ, Hikari Silkworm Selects as well. I've never had shimmie's since.

    13. #113
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      Most my tosai were sff i don't have any other kohaku from any other breeders other than them. My friend has a large pond and his kohaku got a shimmie after he got it from me. The beni still held up well on his kohaku and looks amazing other than a small shimmie.

    14. #114
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      Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
      The basket weave analogy comes from writings in the Japanese koi magazines from 40 or so years ago. There were studies of sumi development performed by the Niigata fisheries institute long ago. (Although I am uncertain if the science of their studies would withstand full scrutiny today.) The findings were that silicon levels 'tighten the weave'. The calcium and magnesium measured when determining hardness were not identified as the important factors. Silicates were important. Soft water tends to have low silicate levels. Hard water tends to have higher silicate levels. However, not all hard water is the same. It depends on the soils through which the water has percolated. ...It is the old story from before World War II where breeders observed that some ponds were better than others in developing sumi. The 'sumi ponds' tended to be more sandy. Back then, of course, the koi were much less refined. Even the best sumi was weak by today's standards. Today's sumi is not so dependent on water components. The genetics advance and the learning of yesteryear has less relevance.
      On the subject of silicate, possible sources include feather rocks (mostly glass) and koi clay (volcanic).

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