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    Thread: Kohaku shimmies

    1. #81
      mplskoi is offline Supporting Member
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    2. #82
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      How can GH be lowered by using Washing Soda? Is it safe for ponds? I thought people use water softeners in their home incoming water to have low GH and KH levels?

    3. #83
      DocJLo is online now Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan1982 View Post
      How can GH be lowered by using Washing Soda? Is it safe for ponds? I thought people use water softeners in their home incoming water to have low GH and KH levels?
      Washing soda is sodium carbonate (NaCO3). If you add it to a solution with high amounts of dissolved calcium (regardless of the source), it causes the calcium to precipitate out of solution by forming calcium carbonate (or limescale).

      Ideally, you donít WANT limescale, but itís one way to do it chemically (and cheaply).


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    4. #84
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      Quote Originally Posted by DocJLo View Post
      Washing soda is sodium carbonate (NaCO3). If you add it to a solution with high amounts of dissolved calcium (regardless of the source), it causes the calcium to precipitate out of solution by forming calcium carbonate (or limescale).

      Ideally, you don’t WANT limescale, but it’s one way to do it chemically (and cheaply).


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      We have a company coming out tomorrow to design a system for us that will treat our water.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    5. #85
      DocJLo is online now Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
      We have a company coming out tomorrow to design a system for us that will treat our water.
      Probably an ion exchange system. Charged resin that exchanges sodium for dissolved calcium, effectively removing calcium (not sure about magnesium) from the water. Fancy stuff!


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    6. #86
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      Quote Originally Posted by DocJLo View Post
      Probably an ion exchange system. Charged resin that exchanges sodium for dissolved calcium, effectively removing calcium (not sure about magnesium) from the water. Fancy stuff!


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      Actually the system is being designed to remove ammonia. Our ammonia, out of the ground is 1.42mg/l. Also TDS.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    7. #87
      DocJLo is online now Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
      Actually the system is being designed to remove ammonia.
      Oh wow. Non-biological removal of ammonia? Probably through a resin (they have them for everything), but thatís a pretty interesting application.


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    8. #88
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      Quote Originally Posted by DocJLo View Post
      Oh wow. Non-biological removal of ammonia? Probably through a resin (they have them for everything), but that’s a pretty interesting application.
      It's taken some research to point me in, what I hope, is the right direction. We'll have more information after our consultation tomorrow.
      You're right, they do have resins for everything.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

      I'll say something when I feel I have something worth saying. I'm not a fan of flapping my lips just because they are there.

    9. #89
      audioenvy is offline Supporting Member
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      Wow this is cool. I'd be interested to see how applicable this solution might be to water already in the pond cycling through a system like this. Might be financially illogical but interesting to think about.

    10. #90
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      Quote Originally Posted by Marilyn View Post
      It's taken some research to point me in, what I hope, is the right direction. We'll have more information after our consultation tomorrow.
      You're right, they do have resins for everything.
      The plus side is that youíd completely bypass concerns for nitrites and nitrates (since those are the result of bacterial metabolism); only con I see is the cost of recharging the resin, but that could be inexpensive for all I know. Heck, you could probably even have resins involved that completely remove chlorine and chloramine, as well. At that point, itíd basically be comparing costs of the chemicals we typically use versus those that involve recharging the resins (or replacing the resin cartridge entirely).

      Iím curious though if any systems can still run without any sort of biological filtration, since Iím sure there is probably some underlying functions of biological filtration that we donít regularly discuss outside of the nitrogen cycle (bacteria produce all sorts of chemicals - think of gut bacteria that help us digest certain vitamins and whathaveyou - some of which may be beneficial to the life of our fish).

      Keep us updated! Pretty interesting stuff.


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    11. #91
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      I just thought id throw this in.... I have a GH of under 20ppm. Ive yet to own a kohaku that didnt get a shimi. I will also share that I have only ever owned 2.

    12. #92
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      Quote Originally Posted by DocJLo View Post
      The plus side is that youíd completely bypass concerns for nitrites and nitrates (since those are the result of bacterial metabolism); only con I see is the cost of recharging the resin, but that could be inexpensive for all I know. Heck, you could probably even have resins involved that completely remove chlorine and chloramine, as well. At that point, itíd basically be comparing costs of the chemicals we typically use versus those that involve recharging the resins (or replacing the resin cartridge entirely).

      Iím curious though if any systems can still run without any sort of biological filtration, since Iím sure there is probably some underlying functions of biological filtration that we donít regularly discuss outside of the nitrogen cycle (bacteria produce all sorts of chemicals - think of gut bacteria that help us digest certain vitamins and whathaveyou - some of which may be beneficial to the life of our fish).

      Keep us updated! Pretty interesting stuff.


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      You nailed it.
      One of the concerns I had was that, though our bio filtration would easily handle the daily addition of water and thus an amount of ammonia, I did not want the downside of additional nitrate accumulation to do so. These tanks will have flow through systems which would normally be reducing nitrates but given our situation, potentially would be increasing them. It's best if the bio filters are only addressing ammonia generated by the koi.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

      I'll say something when I feel I have something worth saying. I'm not a fan of flapping my lips just because they are there.

    13. #93
      Marilyn's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by inazuma28 View Post
      I just thought id throw this in.... I have a GH of under 20ppm. Ive yet to own a kohaku that didnt get a shimi. I will also share that I have only ever owned 2.
      My previous situation sounds like yours. As I've mentioned, I addressed it by being a zealot regarding water changes, filter cleanings and adding foam fractionation.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

      I'll say something when I feel I have something worth saying. I'm not a fan of flapping my lips just because they are there.

    14. #94
      Jonathan1982 is offline Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
      Actually the system is being designed to remove ammonia. Our ammonia, out of the ground is 1.42mg/l. Also TDS.
      Keep us posted Russ and Marilyn. It might be something we can all incorporate into our homes. Depends of course on the price. Regardless, its an interesting subject.

    15. #95
      DocJLo is online now Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan1982 View Post
      Keep us posted Russ and Marilyn. It might be something we can all incorporate into our homes. Depends of course on the price. Regardless, its an interesting subject.
      Agreed. Might be some interesting stuff to incorporate into our little ecosystems.


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    16. #96
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      So pulling some numbers and ideals from the Mike Snaden articles, I'm trying to get an idea of what we're
      shooting for. So the theory sounds like what we should be trying to recreate is the habitat that the koi were
      raised in at the beginning and where they were thriving, which seems like a great idea! Mike says his goals are
      a TDS of about 84 ppm and a KH of 2.75 dH with as low a GH as possible.

      My GH kit arrived but not the calibration solution for TDS meter so I can't verify those numbers but here's what
      my water looks like:

      Pond
      KH 5 drops = 89.5 ppm
      GH 5 drops = 89.5 ppm
      Tap (well)
      KH 6 drops = 107.4 ppm
      GH 6 drops = 107.4 ppm

      Water changes happen on a timer at about 35 gallons every 4 hours with the waste water drawn from the bottom
      of the pond.

      I can't warrant investing in a RO system to try and drop the numbers. Is there another route to try and reach a number
      where if the GH is causing the shimmy issue it might help while still keeping a bit of KH to stabilize the pH? If needed we
      can speculate that the TDS number is correct at about 57 ppm until I get the calibration fluid. What can I add to the pond
      that might help with the shimmies? Or are there other numbers to consider in the calculation?
      --Steve
      Find more about Weather in Poulsbo, WA

      "It is far better to be alone, than to be in bad company." --George Washington

    17. #97
      Rob Forbis is offline Senior Member
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      Apparently kichi are willing to invest a lot of time and money treating hard pond water to prevent shimis. So if someone could please fill in the blank for me a newbie:

      The reason that I know that hard water causes shimis is ___________________________.

      Thanks

    18. #98
      icu2's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Rob Forbis View Post
      Apparently kichi are willing to invest a lot of time and money treating hard pond water to prevent shimis. So if someone could please fill in the blank for me a newbie:

      The reason that I know that hard water causes shimis is ___________________________.

      Thanks
      I have more time than money but I know I just try to follow suggestions by people smarter than myself. And
      I guess the reason I go to the effort is the fact that I don't know the answer to your question but I also don't
      know the answer to:

      "The reason that I know hard water doesn't cause shimis is __________________ ."

      --Steve
      Find more about Weather in Poulsbo, WA

      "It is far better to be alone, than to be in bad company." --George Washington

    19. #99
      inazuma28 is offline Senior Member
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      If it were a government form i believe the answer would be (N/A) but like ive said before, just because there is no scientific study done or paper published does not mean it's false. It means we dont yet have the data. I think this belief has to do with hard water being "better" for sumi. I heard someone retell a conversation with a breeder. It went something like the tissue and scales are like baskets that can hold pigment and the water hardness allowed for a tighter weave of those basket fibers. If this is the case, than it makes sense on a theoretical basis.

      The real problem is our best souse of information is the breeders who gain knowledge through experience and then weave what they know into a hypothesis that we buy as truth. Remember when most medical professionals believed that small doses of radiation were therapeutic? But no one is going to fund a study on pigment cell propagation in koi.

    20. #100
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      Quote Originally Posted by inazuma28 View Post
      Remember when most medical professionals believed that small doses of radiation were therapeutic?
      I mean, we do treat people with small doses of radiation in certain cancers, but I digress .

      The rest of it I agree with. A lot of everything we do (even in medicine) is actually art and experience first, then we go back and look at the basic science to see what might explain what weíre seeing in real life.


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