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    Thread: Hello everyone.

    1. #1
      FRK's Avatar
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      Smile Hello everyone.

      It was suggested I start a new thread here. As a retirement dream I am about dive into Koi breeding. I am a long time koi keeper but a complete novice at breeding. Will appreciate all the feed back I can get along this journey. I have started my dream by having some mud ponds dug and a well drilled. Will be putting in some concrete holding tanks when weather improves this April. I have purchased a Kohaku pair and will also be picking out a Showa pair from Purdins Koi Farm. As a start up I am hoping that I can get by with a single male the first year at least. I will be looking for another compatible male in the future.
      First question. How much should I be concerned with inbreeding ie. If I keep a male from my first spawn and breed back to it's mother? I ask this because I have been led to be very cautious with Japanese imports in regards to disease issues. (example, Kodama just had a KHV outbreak.)

      Here are a couple of pictures of the progress of my start up Koi Farm.

      Woody: The heron eater

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      Last edited by FRK; 02-10-2018 at 04:27 PM.

    2. #2
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      Good for starting your thread.
      I'm a backyard breeder, and started with a general koi collection -- one of everything -- then specialized in trying to breed a type of shusui. I still have the learning curve pond of one of everything, but it would be very good if you could say what kind of koi you want to breed. if you do one-of-these, one-of-those, you're going to make a lot of what is sometimes called "muttagoi." I have some lovely muttagoi, but since you are going through all this expense and time, maybe best to hone in on your goal -- 1. what type of koi do you wish to breed. 2.and do you have a business plan? or just doing it for fun.

      There's a link in my signature line to my thread here called the Ki Shusui Project. It goes back to 2009. If you take a quick spin through, even just looking at the photos, you'll see my 8 year journey to date.
      There are several others in this forum who are breeding types of koi and will be happy to answer your questions.


      P.S. Love Woody!
      Also great soil. Looks like clay. ? Did you do some test holes? Will you only be using well water only or do you have another water source?
      Last edited by Koigrl; 02-10-2018 at 03:15 PM.



      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




      Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

      Updated for the 2018 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

      Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
      https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

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    3. #3
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      I was gonna suggest looking at your thread Max
      My opinions in ER and on this forum are mine only. Use my advice at your own discretion.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."


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      http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...06#post2606106 Show thread

    4. #4
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      Hi Again Koigrl. I do not have a business plan yet. Not looking to get rich but some help with the utility bill would be nice. I will eventually have a website with Koi for sale but not yet. I may plan on attending various Koi shows in the the US and hand out my information when the time comes. My wife cringes when ever I mention culling and she thinks she wants to try selling or finding homes for all my through away fish. We all know this is not completely realistic but Shhhhhhh! what she doesn't see wont hurt her. I plan on sticking to Kohaku and Showa until I grow some experience with the art of culling.
      I could use some input on an issue. I just paid $250.00 for a large bag of Hakari Grow koi food because it was recommended to me. Can anyone suggest a comparable food that is more affordable?

    5. #5
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      I will be using well water only. We have a very nice spring fed creek on the property but I would fear farmers up stream leaching fertilizer and herbicides in to the source.

    6. #6
      Koigrl's Avatar
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      Brilliant!
      Like your wife, I cannot cull. LOL. Well, tell her that female koi have between 200-500,000 eggs (each!) and let's hope they never all hatch! I got lucky and have a friend who sells my offspring to people with farm ponds who want to keep the mosquitos and algae down. I see one breeder here who culls early by taking out eggs before they are hatched. Cutting down on the number of fry also cuts down on water/air/food.
      Re: your koi of choice. I don't know much about gosanke (showa, kohaku, sanke) but there is a lot of information out there. Tons.
      Matt may jump in here!
      Have you purchased your breeding pairs?
      If not -- you can ask folks on this forum to assess your choices. Marilyn! And we have a section called Judge This Koi. Check it out. There are books on koi, many. Or buy what makes you happy.
      I think I am starting to see the outlines of your plan. using one pond for Showa and the other for Kohaku?
      This could def. work.
      Great idea to go to shows. Meet folks. Hone your vision.
      And I wouldn't worry about back-crossing offspring to parent yet. Takes a while for the offspring to become old enough to do the deed.
      re: food.
      I used Hikari food for the first time last year.
      Stephen may want to weigh in here!
      I understand he used a company called Jehn for his fry food - they have dried insect and prawn type food -- and I have been buying from them for the last couple of years for the babies. Their food is also pricey. But excellent.
      For regular good quality food, I use Blackwater Creek koi food.
      You're right to use well water rather than a water source with possible chemicals. I have two dedicated wells for my three mud ponds and i do a flow-through system. Water in from the well. Water out to the crick. This may not be legal so maybe you need drainage line into your field.
      There is so much to learn. And also -- controversy.
      At eleven years in the hobby, I'm still a noob. This very rewarding hobby and can be quite the rollercoaster ride. Buckle up.
      Last edited by Koigrl; 02-10-2018 at 05:06 PM.



      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




      Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

      Updated for the 2018 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

      Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
      https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

      If you're reading this, you're on Team Ki.
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    7. #7
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      Hi FRK,

      Sounds like a fun retirement dream. Best wishes. Being in SW MO, you may be familiar with MO-Koi near Neosho. I visited there once a few years ago, and McBride sure had some nice stock.

      Koigrl is one of the few on this forum that has gone with the total mud pond strategy that seems to be what you are looking at doing (more like the pros). Several back yard breeders on here, like myself, do the spawning and raising in big tubs or small lined ponds. And some breed them that way, and when the reach a few inches, put the best in a mud pond to grow out. So there is quite a diverse range of strategies on this forum.

      I just breed koi for fun, in hopes of getting a few that I would like to keep and watch grow. So a business plan or marketing does not enter the picture with me. I've tried breeding showa each of the last 3 seasons with rather limited success. What I like about showa is that with 3 colors and tremendous variety of patterns and color mixtures, basically no two look alike. And sometimes you get a nice utsuri too. Delbert and a few others here have bred showa also.

      I'm no expert on picking koi to use to breed. I just take the best looking ones I have or can get my hands on at a good price. Better quality to start with gets better results, and maybe your koi from Purdin will help get you there.

      Quote Originally Posted by FRK View Post
      I just paid $250.00 for a large bag of Hakari Grow koi food because it was recommended to me. Can anyone suggest a comparable food that is more affordable?
      Perhaps not many here would agree, but my experience has been that larger quantities of cheaper food is better for growth that smaller quantities of expensive food. I feed my adults and young koi Mazuri Platinum (a Purina product) that works out to about $2.50 - $3.00 per pound when bought in 20 pound bags. The new fry can eat the pellets when the get to 2"-3". But while they are too small for that, I also grind the pellets up, put some in an old plastic syrup filled with pond water, and squirt it in around the pond edges. My koi keep good color and grow big, some over 30". So I haven't seen the need to pay more.

      Also, for fry in their first few weeks/months, I have gotten VERY good growth results using a high protein blend of seafood with some vegetables. For details of recipes and growth results, see post #12 of the thread below and some of the surrounding discussion.
      http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...owa-Spawn-2016
      I don't know how practical it would be to try to feed baby koi this way on a large scale.

      The breeding aspect of the hobby has lots of challenges but lots of reward.

      Matt

    8. #8
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      Matt and Koigrl. Thank you both for the feedback. All is great info. Matt... I have a mud pond we put in while building our new house two years ago and it became the new home for the Mutt collection I have had for twenty years or more and also I purchased 60 pond grade six inch koi from Jerry in Neosho. I have been feeding them Mazzuri feed for the past couple of years. The photo below is the two year old mud pond. I'll snap a picture of my mutt collection tomorrow and throw it on here. Also I posted some pictures of my future Kohaku pair on the Judge my Koi thread.

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    9. #9
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      FRK, how deep is that pond? Do the flags keep the bird out? lol Do you get ice?



      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




      Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

      Updated for the 2018 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

      Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
      https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

      If you're reading this, you're on Team Ki.
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      K-POTY 2013

    10. #10
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      The flags, the balloons, some plastic alligators and netting around the edges...... Not totally effective on the herons lol. My plan for this pond and the new ponds in the future will be nylon strings (bailing twine) spanning the entire pond area with netting around the sides. I have seen this method used in some of the videos I watch from ponds in japan. When I get it in place I will post a photo.

    11. #11
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      This pond is 5.5 feet deep. and yes we get ice. I have an airator that keeps an open area in the ice. Also I got extremely lucky. When we drilled the well for our house we hit artiesian pressure. The excess water is pipped away from the well head. I catch this water in a bucket and pump it into the pond. So it has a good flow through water source.

    12. #12
      Koigrl's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by FRK View Post
      The flags, the balloons, some plastic alligators and netting around the edges...... Not totally effective on the herons lol. My plan for this pond and the new ponds in the future will be nylon strings (bailing twine) spanning the entire pond area with netting around the sides. I have seen this method used in some of the videos I watch from ponds in japan. When I get it in place I will post a photo.
      yes, I have seen this, also. Should work. I have mine netted across the top, too, maybe it wasn't nec. but i have herons dropping in from overhead into holes in the net. You'll find out quick! LOL on the alligator head. I had one of those too. Didn't scare anyone. I'm banking on Woody!



      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




      Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

      Updated for the 2018 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

      Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
      https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

      If you're reading this, you're on Team Ki.
      Kichi loves company. Max


      K-POTY 2013

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      Koigrl's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by FRK View Post
      This pond is 5.5 feet deep. and yes we get ice. I have an airator that keeps an open area in the ice. Also I got extremely lucky. When we drilled the well for our house we hit artiesian pressure. The excess water is pipped away from the well head. I catch this water in a bucket and pump it into the pond. So it has a good flow through water source.
      Excellent! 5.5' should do the trick and flow through is so important when you can't filter and do water changes.
      Can you share your first name?



      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




      Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

      Updated for the 2018 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

      Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
      https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

      If you're reading this, you're on Team Ki.
      Kichi loves company. Max


      K-POTY 2013

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      My name is Mike and my wife is Cindy. We live in th Ozarks of Missouri about 20 miles out of Springfield or as a more familiar refernce (lol) 40 miles from Branson.

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      Mike and Cindy!



      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




      Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

      Updated for the 2018 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

      Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
      https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

      If you're reading this, you're on Team Ki.
      Kichi loves company. Max


      K-POTY 2013

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      Mike, your kohaku pair have very nice patterns and robust builds. The female looks loaded, and with her and the male being pretty good sized to start with, you should get swarms of new prospects.

      Not that I know that much about mud ponds, but it sounds like you have a good water strategy and plans to protect the little ones from predators. Netting around the sides to block herons and land predators from wading in and twine crossing overhead to deter the aerial assaults. I guess if kingfishers or hawk-type predators start penetrating gaps in the overhead twine, you will be able to see them in the daylight and adjust the overhead protection accordingly.

    17. #17
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      Hi Matt: My worst predator that I know of are the Herons. I plan on using bailing twine. It is strong, it is yellow and highly visible and cheap. I don't think winged predators will risk wing damage by diving through the gaps but I could be mistaken. Sounds like Koigrl has some experience with them getting through her netting. We will see and I will do what I can to improve the protection as I go.

    18. #18
      Koigrl's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by FRK View Post
      Hi Matt: My worst predator that I know of are the Herons. I plan on using bailing twine. It is strong, it is yellow and highly visible and cheap. I don't think winged predators will risk wing damage by diving through the gaps but I could be mistaken. Sounds like Koigrl has some experience with them getting through her netting. We will see and I will do what I can to improve the protection as I go.
      I've got green herons, too, as well as the kingfisher. Worst of the worst -- mink in winter. :mad: Oh, yeah. Got racoons.
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      Last edited by Koigrl; 02-11-2018 at 05:02 PM.



      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




      Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

      Updated for the 2018 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

      Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
      https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

      If you're reading this, you're on Team Ki.
      Kichi loves company. Max


      K-POTY 2013

    19. #19
      Koigrl's Avatar
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      this would be the green heron
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      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




      Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

      Updated for the 2018 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

      Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
      https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

      If you're reading this, you're on Team Ki.
      Kichi loves company. Max


      K-POTY 2013

    20. #20
      FRK's Avatar
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      Wow: Quite the lineup of evil. I have seen a Green Heron here but have not actually caught him fishng yet. I chase off the Great Blue herons daily. No Mink in my area that I have seen yet. I have been conoeing on the river near by and seen them there so logic predicts they could find me some day. I have found a half eaten carcus a couple of times with out knowing the culprit. My first guess is a Coon. Looks like you have a pretty hard winter wher you are. My new ponds have fairly steep banks, so Herons and Coons have less water to wade in.

      The picture of my mutts in the mutt pond.

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