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    Thread: Losing a lot of water--where is it going?

    1. #1
      Windsong Acres's Avatar
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      Losing a lot of water--where is it going?

      Last Friday I lifted the plastic and looked at my koi pond--to my shock, it was about half empty. The filtering system had shut down, but at least the air stone was going. It was really cold here, and I had not looked under the plastic for a couple of days.

      I did not see any signs of tearing of the liner at the water level, but it had settled close to the bottom of my mid-water drain. I put that drain in about a year and a half ago; it is a 4" pipe, but runs about 18"-2 feet deep. I know it wasn't below the frost line, but I knew I covered the pond and thought it would always have 40 degree water running through it, so I reasoned it should be o.k. to not go deeper. I think I might have been wrong!

      When we had a thaw this past week after a brutal cold spell here in mid-Illinois, my theory is that the pipe froze, then when it thawed out it began to leak.

      So Friday, I put a plug in the mid-water line right where it enters the pond, filled up the pond Friday, and thought I'd be o.k. until I redo that pond this spring. Wrong again...

      By Saturday morning, the water level had dropped 4" in about 12 hours since I had topped off the pond. The pond is about 11 x 17, so 4" is a lot of water. (No sign of it on the ground anywhere.)

      By Sunday morning, it was now down about 7.5", and by Monday morning, it was down 11"! At this point, it was at the base of the opening for the skimmer...so I thought I would see if dropped any more, proving it was the skimmer line that was leaking instead of the new, shallow, mid-level drain line (after all, it was plugged so couldn't leak any pond water, right???)

      Well, tonight (Monday night), the water had fallen another 2" (not quite as fast this time, but now we are 13" down. The mystifying part to me was that the water level inside the skimmer box was also down about 2" below the bottom of the skimmer mouth opening...matching the lower level in the pond itself! How could water fall in both isolated containers--the pond and the skimmer box--at the same rate when they were no longer connected by the skimmer box opening?

      Then it hit me--there are three pipes that are all connected by the RDF box! Even when the filter is shut down, water can still flow from the skimmer box, into the RDF, then backward out into the mid-level drain pipe, and out a break into the ground--even if the other end of the mid-level pipe is plugged.

      So I shut all the valves, eliminating the RDF box, and I will watch and see what level continues to fall, if any, tomorrow. If the skimmer box water level falls, then the skimmer pipe broke. If the levels all remain steady, it could be a break in the shallow mid-water drain line (where I suspect it is). And if the leak happens to be in the BD line, then the pond level will continue to fall, but the level in the skimmer box will not.

      I will post a simple drawing in a moment to illustrate...
      My Current 13,000 gallon Pond Build: https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...ot-in-Illinois

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    2. #2
      Windsong Acres's Avatar
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      This is a simple drawing of the three pipes that all connect to the RDF. I suspect that the break in the line is somewhere near the red X. But it could be where the zero is located too. Either way, those two lines are connected at the RDF, and I did not think to shut the valves at the RDF before testing to see which line was leaking. I was going to let the pond continue going down until it stopped leaking, and let that tell me where the leak was coming from. What I didn’t realize is that putting a plug in the mid water line, where it enters the pond, would not prevent water from going backward from the skimmer into the RDF and then back into the med water drain line, if in fact that is where the broken line exists.

      So now each line is truly isolated and tomorrow I should be able to find out which one is the culprit. Then I will plug it, fill the pond back up, and hopefully be able to limp through the next few weeks until I can tear this pond out and replace it with one that is much better. Details of that process is discussed on my other current thread…
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    3. #3
      kevin32 is offline Inactivated
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      I had my intex pool loose 200 gallons a day and have no idea where it went was so weird. no leaks or wet soil . with that much water loss u should see a saturated spot I would think?

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      Windsong Acres's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by kevin32 View Post
      I had my intex pool loose 200 gallons a day and have no idea where it went was so weird. no leaks or wet soil . with that much water loss u should see a saturated spot I would think?
      Actually, the pond is located only a few feet from the house, and there are tiles around the foundation of the house that run all the way out to the ditch. I have not gone out to the ditch to see if there is a lot of water running out the pipe, but that would be something to check. It’s definitely going somewhere, and it is not coming to the surface.
      My Current 13,000 gallon Pond Build: https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...ot-in-Illinois

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      kevin32 is offline Inactivated
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      Quote Originally Posted by Windsong Acres View Post
      Actually, the pond is located only a few feet from the house, and there are tiles around the foundation of the house that run all the way out to the ditch. I have not gone out to the ditch to see if there is a lot of water running out the pipe, but that would be something to check. It’s definitely going somewhere, and it is not coming to the surface.
      sounds scary to me. close to the house and u have a leak. yikes

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      kevin32 is offline Inactivated
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      wonder if like a pond dye would show the leak more coming to the ditch?

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      also when u eliminate the midwater drain are toy messing with the rdf and causing it to overflow or something? everything works in harmony on the rdfs whether this is the be or profidrum

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      Good luck finding the leak. Not sure how cold you days have been, but has it been that cold in your location for it to freeze those pipes that are buried 2 and 3 feet down?

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      Just a thought, if you plug the intake into the RDF from the mid-level intake and the skimmer box maintains a constant level, than it would confirm the red X ? I guess it could be much of the length of the mid-level pipe that split ? If the RDF was running all the time, I am surprised the pipe would ice up even if only a foot under the surface. Perhaps the freeze/thaw shifted the ground enough to shear the pipe where it enters the pit ? Good Luck.

    10. #10
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      before it might be to late. could you setup temp holding pond. seems this leak will not be an easy fix buddy

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    11. #11
      Windsong Acres's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by kevin32 View Post
      wonder if like a pond dye would show the leak more coming to the ditch?
      I thought about that once, but I am not sure what kind of dye to use, and once I use it, it would be in the water for quite a long time. I would rather just watch the water level fall and use a process of illumination to figure out which pipe is the guilty one!
      My Current 13,000 gallon Pond Build: https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...ot-in-Illinois

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    12. #12
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      Quote Originally Posted by kevin32 View Post
      also when u eliminate the midwater drain are toy messing with the rdf and causing it to overflow or something? everything works in harmony on the rdfs whether this is the be or profidrum
      It is a profidrum, and it will run on just two of the three lines… In fact, if I pinch the pump back, it would even work on one line. But that is a good question… Thanks for your ideas, Kevin!
      My Current 13,000 gallon Pond Build: https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...ot-in-Illinois

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    13. #13
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      Quote Originally Posted by cottagefog View Post
      Good luck finding the leak. Not sure how cold you days have been, but has it been that cold in your location for it to freeze those pipes that are buried 2 and 3 feet down?
      It has been an unusually cold winter here… We had pipes freeze underneath the scale house bathroom, which is the first time in five years that has happened, in spite of the fact that last time I insulated the pit area underneath and wrapped all the pipes with foam too. Also, our horse drink has frozen up two times this month, in spite of being insulated. We have heard from many other people whose pipes have been freezing, so I do think it is possible.
      My Current 13,000 gallon Pond Build: https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...ot-in-Illinois

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    14. #14
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      Quote Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post
      Just a thought, if you plug the intake into the RDF from the mid-level intake and the skimmer box maintains a constant level, than it would confirm the red X ? I guess it could be much of the length of the mid-level pipe that split ? If the RDF was running all the time, I am surprised the pipe would ice up even if only a foot under the surface. Perhaps the freeze/thaw shifted the ground enough to shear the pipe where it enters the pit ? Good Luck.
      Thanks! I have been wondering about how it could have broken also! I don’t think it broke near the pit, or I would be seeing water coming in the pit (and I do not). But that is an excellent theory… And Likewise it is possible that the freeze heaved the ground at the pond end and tore the liner where the pipe flange penetrates the liner… I have not been able to closely examine that area yet. But visually it looks OK.

      As far as a running pipe freezing up, I think that the opening of the dome of the mid level line was Partially clogged with hair algae (which I noticed when I removed the dome to put in the plug recently), and that may have resulted in a slow flow through the pipe. Therefore, even though it was a 4 inch pipe, it was shallow and also had 15 or 20 feet to go through shallow and frozen ground which may have allowed the pipe to slowly ice up somewhere on the inside if the flow was slow...starting a vicious circle by further slowing the flow by restricting the pipe with ice, and then that would’ve allowed more ice to form until the pipe froze solid. As the flow restricts in one pipe, the flow through the other two merely increases to compensate. But that same principle could have worked on either the skimmer pipe or the mid-level pipe. I don’t think it would have happened on the bottom drain line because it is below the frost line, and most of the skimmer pipe is also below the frost line so I think it is unlikely. Most likely it is the shallow mid-level line.

      Thanks again for your thoughts… I will keep everyone posted.
      My Current 13,000 gallon Pond Build: https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...ot-in-Illinois

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    15. #15
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      Quote Originally Posted by kevin32 View Post
      before it might be to late. could you setup temp holding pond. seems this leak will not be an easy fix buddy
      Great thought… Unfortunately the wind tore the plastic cover over my goldfish pond, and it was enough of an opening that a three or 4 inch layer of ice formed on the top of that pond (the koi pond is under plastic with no tears, and so I have gotten no ice on the surface at least). I have a bubbler running in the goldfish pond which has kept a hole in the ice, but it is not an adequate place to transfer the Koi at this time. Also, my intex QT has a layer of ice on it too! But it may come to moving the fish if the leak proves to be near the bottom of the pond somehow. I am hoping it is in one of the two pipes mentioned so I can simply shut off the valve to that pipe in the pit, and then plug the pipe at the pond, And then proceed normally with the remaining two drain lines. I should know more tomorrow morning!
      My Current 13,000 gallon Pond Build: https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...ot-in-Illinois

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    16. #16
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      These pics show the water levels this morning.

      By this morning, the water level fell another two inches in the skimmer box, but the level in the pond itself stayed the same overnight. So that indicates a leak in the skimmer pipe....or possibly the skimmer box itself.

      It does not rule out a second leak in the mid-level drain pipe because the pond level was below the mid-level drain to begin with—-in the photo, note the water level relative to the red plug. The mid-level drain has been plugged ever since I suspected it was the one leaking.

      So this morning I unplugged the mid-level drain and filled the pond up over it to see if it loses any water today. Meanwhile, I also filled the skimmer up again (still below the opening though, so it is still separate from the pond water). That way I can doublecheck that water is definitely leaking out of the skimmer pipe, and meanwhile, I will check to be sure the mid-level drain line is holding water.

      Tonight I should know enough about the situation to plug the broken pipe(s), fill up the pond, and get the filter running again.

      I just need a few more weeks out of this system before it will be time to tear this system out and renovate this pond. I can tell you one thing...I will be VERY CAREFUL with the plumbing, and it will all be below the frost line this time!
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      Any progress?

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      Quote Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
      Any progress?
      Yes! I narrowed the problem down to the skimmer pipe, or so I thought. However, the water level stopped falling in the skimmer box at the TOP of the pipe bulkhead (it penetrates the side of the skimmer).

      So, you can see the problem from the photos. The frozen ground caused the pipe to move enough to crack the plastic of the skimmer box.

      I repaired the crack last night after work, and tonight I will start up the pond again. I tested the repair overnight, and the skimmer held water all night. :-)

      I have often wished I had put the bulkhead/pipe through the bottom of the skimmer box instead of the side because the way I did it allowed muck to accumulate in the bottom of the skimmer box. It also would have resulted in the pipe and bulkhead being deeper in the ground...just a little less likely to be affected by freezing ground.

      Also, this experience shows why it is a good idea to put concrete around the base of the skimmer where the pipe enters the skimmer box.
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      Last edited by Windsong Acres; 01-25-2018 at 05:15 PM.
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    19. #19
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      Why did the pond leak down to the mid-level intake opening? Is the crack in the skimmer low enough for that?

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