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    Thread: KHV, Parasite, or Pox??

    1. #1
      nishikigoi21's Avatar
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      KHV, Parasite, or Pox??

      So I have a new Kin Showa currently in quarantine that I'm concerned about.
      At the dealer, I saw a few small white spots on it's tail. You can actually touch it and it's clearly a bump.
      Unfortunately none of the fish specialists were around but one of the people said it's probably carp pox...it's just they never seen it on the tail.

      Now, observing it in an aquarium, I see there are several other issues that I wasn't aware of when it was in the bowl.
      The small white spots on the tail, there's actually one on the dorsal as well.
      And the bottom-half of the tail is unbalanced but do you think it was born like this or torn off?

      There's also a few pimple-like bumps on the scales of it's body. These have more of a pinkish color and are accompanies by a vein.
      It's got some kind of pink slimy stuff on it's belly and the base of the pectoral fin.

      The body shape seems off overall, especially the rounded face(shorter nose?) This is compared to the other fish that I've observed in an aquarium. Is this just a gender thing? Because it is confirmed a male.(Comparison with female Kujaku)
      The eyes are set further in than all of my other fish. It doesn't appear sunken, but it's definitely flat with the socket. The other fish usually have about half of it's eyes sticking out(not pop-eye...I think)

      Now it could be just carp pox which I'm hoping it is...but it could also be encysted ich or some other parasite.
      What I'm very afraid of it being is KHV...

      I've been reading up on the symptoms but the skin condition and the eyes seem to be close...Are there any other visual symptoms to look out for?
      Is the V-notch on the nose only visible on dead fish or dying ones? What about the gills?


      It's currently pacing back & forth actively in the high 60's.
      I just might be overthinking but I have lost fish to KHV a decade ago which has kept me away from the hobby until recently.
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    2. #2
      Russell Peters's Avatar
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      IMO it is not carp pox. You can scrape them off and then you can put salt on the areas that are affected. It should keep them from coming back. The tail is probably growing back after a bacterial infection.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    3. #3
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      There are no indications of KHV that are visible. The bumps could be pox, or could be an encysted parasite. Depending on the view of the belly area, some of those bumps appear to be fungus, which is easily treated with Proform C, or even with a small 1" size paint brush dipped in table salt and scrubbed on the bumps. The ones in the tail may just need some time and a temperature change to go away.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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    4. #4
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      The white spots on the tail seem to have gotten larger and the numbers.
      I increased the temperature to 76F and I will upload pictures daily.

      A gentleman suggested that it could be fish lice and that I should treat with dimlin...I'm not familiar with this medication but is it compatible with Proform C & Prazi?

      And does anybody know the answer to the nose notch question? And also the reason why the eyes on this fish aren't as "popped out" as others?


      Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
      IMO it is not carp pox. You can scrape them off and then you can put salt on the areas that are affected. It should keep them from coming back. The tail is probably growing back after a bacterial infection.
      If it's not carp pox, what do you think it is?


      Quote Originally Posted by RichToyBox View Post
      There are no indications of KHV that are visible. The bumps could be pox, or could be an encysted parasite. Depending on the view of the belly area, some of those bumps appear to be fungus, which is easily treated with Proform C, or even with a small 1" size paint brush dipped in table salt and scrubbed on the bumps. The ones in the tail may just need some time and a temperature change to go away.
      Thank you; I will probably start my usual Proform C/Prazi protocol tomorrow or the day after.

    5. #5
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      Quote Originally Posted by nishikigoi21 View Post
      The white spots on the tail seem to have gotten larger and the numbers.
      I increased the temperature to 76F and I will upload pictures daily.

      A gentleman suggested that it could be fish lice and that I should treat with dimlin...I'm not familiar with this medication but is it compatible with Proform C & Prazi?

      And does anybody know the answer to the nose notch question? And also the reason why the eyes on this fish aren't as "popped out" as others?




      If it's not carp pox, what do you think it is?




      Thank you; I will probably start my usual Proform C/Prazi protocol tomorrow or the day after.
      It is not fish lice, those Koi do not exhibit sunken eyes nor do they exhibit a notched nose that would indicate a problem. It is probably enchanted Ich. I think you are way over thinking this. Sedate the Koi, scrape off the lumps and apply salt to the affected areas.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    6. #6
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      While I'm not a fish doctor and don't play one on TV.... Looking closely at this picture I see tendrils or tentacles extending from both these spots. Is that not an indication of a parasite?

      steve
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      Quote Originally Posted by Pond,James_Pond View Post
      While I'm not a fish doctor and don't play one on TV.... Looking closely at this picture I see tendrils or tentacles extending from both these spots. Is that not an indication of a parasite?

      steve
      What you are seeing are the blood vessels on the surface of the scale reacting to the irritant. They are hard but can be scraped off and treated. Encysted Ich is what I believe they are and is what I have been told by breeders in Japan when I show them pictures. It is a parasite but it is difficult to treat in this state. The 'white' stuff is an excretion produced by the Koi.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    8. #8
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      Today' Update

      So as you can see, the bumps on the tail has increased a bit from yesterday.
      I tried scraping it off gently with my fingers, but it doesn't seem like something that would easily come off. And one of them actually seemed like it was inside the tail...
      This might be an absurd idea but could I poke the bumps with a soldering iron, or is that too risky for the fish's skin?

      I just started my 14 day treatment protocol with Proform-C and Hikari Prazipro soon to follow. The water temperature is now 78F.
      If it is ich, I know heating it to the upper 80's would kill it, but I'm not sure if a coldwater fish like Koi can handle those temperatures.
      Should I bump it up to the lower~mid 80's or are we good in the upper 70's?

      The 2 pink dots on the body, I agree with Russ-san. It looks like a blood vessel rather than a tentacle. I've seen veins on doitsu varieties but never on the scaled wagoi.

      And the pink slime on the belly; it seems the fish scraped a lot of it off on it's own while it was thrashing about in the gravel when I did a 95% water change.


      I tend to overthink things when something is off, which can make this hobby quite stressful but hopefully this isn't something that I should worry too much about.
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      Last edited by nishikigoi21; 02-08-2018 at 11:39 PM.

    9. #9
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      Quote Originally Posted by nishikigoi21 View Post
      So as you can see, the bumps on the tail has increased a bit from yesterday.
      I tried scraping it off gently with my fingers, but it doesn't seem like something that would easily come off. And one of them actually seemed like it was inside the tail...
      This might be an absurd idea but could I poke the bumps with a soldering iron, or is that too risky for the fish's skin?

      I just started my 14 day treatment protocol with Proform-C and Hikari Prazipro soon to follow. The water temperature is now 78F.
      If it is ich, I know heating it to the upper 80's would kill it, but I'm not sure if a coldwater fish like Koi can handle those temperatures.
      Should I bump it up to the lower~mid 80's or are we good in the upper 70's?

      The 2 pink dots on the body, I agree with Russ-san. It looks like a blood vessel rather than a tentacle. I've seen veins on doitsu varieties but never on the scaled wagoi.

      And the pink slime on the belly; it seems the fish scraped a lot of it off on it's own while it was thrashing about in the gravel when I did a 95% water change.


      I tend to overthink things when something is off, which can make this hobby quite stressful but hopefully this isn't something that I should worry too much about.
      Scraping it off gently is not what is needed. You can forcefully scrape them off with a finger nail, which is what I do, you can even use a credit card. You may get a little blood, but that is OK, and then you put salt on it for a few minutes. The area will turn whiter but you just rinse it off with water and return the Koi to the pond. It will recover.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    10. #10
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      So I was able to scrape most of the spots & dots with force; although there was some bleeding.
      I followed up with a 3~5% salt dip which tipped it over in a matter of minutes. That was quite frightening and I should have been more precise with my calculations.

      The fish is still acting a bit dazed, but it could be from the salt dip, it could be the double-dose of Proform-C, or just plain lack of oxygen...
      Tank temperature is currently 80F but should I lower it to the mid~high 70's? I don't have any spare air pumps or any other means of adding aeration.

      I'm planning on doing 5 days of Proform-C instead of the 3 days as the bottle suggests; but tomorrow I won't double-dose it like I did today.

      I'll take pictures tomorrow.

    11. #11
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      Quote Originally Posted by nishikigoi21 View Post
      So I was able to scrape most of the spots & dots with force; although there was some bleeding.
      I followed up with a 3~5% salt dip which tipped it over in a matter of minutes. That was quite frightening and I should have been more precise with my calculations.

      The fish is still acting a bit dazed, but it could be from the salt dip, it could be the double-dose of Proform-C, or just plain lack of oxygen...
      Tank temperature is currently 80F but should I lower it to the mid~high 70's? I don't have any spare air pumps or any other means of adding aeration.

      I'm planning on doing 5 days of Proform-C instead of the 3 days as the bottle suggests; but tomorrow I won't double-dose it like I did today.

      I'll take pictures tomorrow.
      I am sorry but you did not understand. A salt dip is not the correct procedures. I said to put salt on the areas that were affected. You scrape off the lumps, bleeding does happen, and then you put salt on top of the area that was scraped. You can put table salt on your wet finger and just rub directly on it.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    12. #12
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      Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
      I am sorry but you did not understand. A salt dip is not the correct procedures. I said to put salt on the areas that were affected. You scrape off the lumps, bleeding does happen, and then you put salt on top of the area that was scraped. You can put table salt on your wet finger and just rub directly on it.
      Shoot...well it's too late now but luckily I didn't kill my fish and it has been acting normally from this morning.

      It looks I was able to scrape off the 2 pink dots on the body completely...still some veining on those scales but hopefully that will be gone in the next few days.
      Most of the slime on the belly and left pec is gone too. And I don't see any white spots on the tail.

      I do however still see something on the dorsal so I'll keep an eye out on that. Anyways I will keep on treating and heating at 78F for the next 2 weeks.
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      Last edited by nishikigoi21; 02-11-2018 at 04:31 AM.

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      I keep scraping and scraping but something just keeps on coming back on the same area of the tail!
      Not so much on the Kin Showa, the original victim, but more on the tank-mate Gin Shiro Utsuri who was completely clean at first.

      It's pinkish and like a teenager's zit.

    14. #14
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      I have had good results treating with Dimilin. A number of years ago, Brady Brandwood, owner of Lotus Land Koi, told Gordon Parr that those bumps were not pox, but encysted juvenile anchor worm. Being an encysted parasite, it has to come out of the fish to develop and multiply. Dimilin will do a good job on anchor worm. There have also been some that suggest it is ich, and ich is best treated with salt at 0.3%, as salt can be maintained for however long it takes for the kill, without hurting the fish. The use of Proform C is supposed to be good for ich, but it takes too many doses to keep it in a killing mode long enough for the life cycle of the ich, especially in colder waters.

      With Dimilin and salt, and with the most expensive part of the hobby, that none can buy and many are short of, called patience, the problem can be ended.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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      Quote Originally Posted by nishikigoi21 View Post
      I keep scraping and scraping but something just keeps on coming back on the same area of the tail!
      Not so much on the Kin Showa, the original victim, but more on the tank-mate Gin Shiro Utsuri who was completely clean at first.

      It's pinkish and like a teenager's zit.
      Did you try putting table salt directly on it this time?
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

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      Thanks gentlemen!
      And to Russ-san, yes sir!

    17. #17
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      Any updates on this? I had gotten a Goshiki from a mud pond growout that introduced this same issue to a few fish in one of my QT tanks and I may need to follow the same steps here.

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      Hey there Euryth; to be honest I'm not sure what exactly it was but it hasn't returned after several "operations"
      My local dealer told me it's rare to see anchor worms & fish lice on Japanese imports, but Sekiguchi Koi Farm says it can occur if the mud ponds & harvested fish aren't sanitized properly.

      This Kin Showa was in my QT which is heated to 78F and I perform shotgun treatments for 2 weeks(Proform-C & Hikari Prazipro) on new fish. The prazi treatment lasts 10 days but I do a 75~100% water change on the 6th day and re-dose as needed.
      The pink slime went away on it's own pretty quickly and never returned, as to the 2 pink dots which I scraped off. It's the white spots on the tail which kept on coming back, even after numerous attempts to scrape it off. It even appeared on it's tankmate.

      I was advised here to directly apply salt on the area after scraping, but I misinterpreted it and performed a heavy salt dip which completely knocked the fish out quickly.
      On a different day I scraped it off and applied Proform-C directly to the white spots. Just make sure not to mix Proform-C & salt...I'm not sure what exactly happens but I've read that the combination creates a toxic gas and blinds(kills?) the fish?

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      If it is still returning, I would dose with Dimilin, 1 gram per thousand gallons and leave it, doing just normal water changes of about 10% per week. It won't hurt, many times will help, and is much easier to perform than the scraping and topical application of salt. Dimilin is used to treat parasites that have a shell, like anchor worm and argulus, by preventing the development of chitin, which is the material in the shell. Not for use in waters that have or will have anytime soon, shell fish, shrimp, lobster, crayfish, and will kill most of the insects that have shell that use the water. Totally harmless to fish, dogs, cats, humans, birds.
      Last edited by RichToyBox; 04-16-2018 at 09:49 PM. Reason: change dosage from per hundred to per thousand

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    20. #20
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      Oh yes I totally forgot; I completely changed out the water and did a dimilin treatment for a few days after the shotgun was done.

      Rich; I keep seeing different instructions regarding the dosage of dimilin but does it all depend on the actual product? Dimilin is just the name of an ingredient just like praziquental and methylene blue right?
      My dealer shared some powder with me called "Dimilin 25W" I believe and that was about a gram per 1,000gallons.

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