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    Thread: Spring Again...

    1. #1
      little_mikey is online now Senior Member
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      Spring Again...

      This week it should hit 80 (Florida). Was worried that all the plants that got whomped by Irma might not survive the winter. So far things are looking up.

      My "ugly baby" even survived: (Nymphaea amazonum)
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      Caerulea, Elegans, Jongkolnee
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    2. #2
      gray cat's Avatar
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      Good to hear all is well with your plants. Glad Spring is in your area now.
      Nancy



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      Great job saving them, Mikey!
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      I would not have thought that water plants and lilies would have any problems wintering over in Orlando.
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    5. #5
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      Quote Originally Posted by gander View Post
      I would not have thought that water plants and lilies would have any problems wintering over in Orlando.
      In theory...

      I'm just grateful things didn't get swept away in Irma. I was pretty worried about a couple of my harries that had oak tree limbs fall into the rhizhomes (cracking them). I also don't always achieve success at tubering. Like Craig and others said that hydrocallis tuber... but I was heavy handed with the fertilizer this year and ended up with an overgrowth rhizome.



      Bottom line is I was really busting my hump in November trying to clean up Irma stuff. The positive thing is that there are less trees to shade the ponds I guess. Overall I am starting 1 month earlier than last year (sprouted tubers last week of January). At this rate I am going to have grown a gigantea, and tuber it before June even gets here. I even have 2 E. ferrrox seedlings right now. I have no doubt they will complete their life cycle and burn out in no time.

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      Many thanks again Frank for the generosity. The elegans pup sprouted from the tuber has 2 flower buds already. Also was able to grow the orchid star long enough last winter to charge up the tuber with some fertilizer/sun. Just amazing how vigorous star type lilies are.
      Last edited by little_mikey; 02-06-2018 at 11:39 AM.

    6. #6
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      Craig and others don't make this stuff up...the Hydrocallis do indeed tuber. < g > We had a mild winter here, even the lilies in the farm pond only missed a few days of blooming in a cold snap shortly after New Year....but the N. prolifera never missed a beat.

      I had just let them run wild, but now it seems I'll need the pond, as it is deeper than my others and used to grow Vics. I had sworn I was done with Vics, but got a call yesterday from someone promised species seed and has asked for my help in growing ama...ama is a bear to grow and they want to split the seed among proven growers.... Anyway, I needed to clean the pond out in prep and while tossing the prolifera, I found Vic seed from my last season starting to volunteer.

      I swear this is my last Vic season, but am excited they are trying to get the Vic Conservancy up and running again.
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      Craig

    7. #7
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      @Craig
      Glad to see you are up and running for the year. Yeah my amazon is going crazy.
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      I just don't think I was able to stress my plants adequately last year. I switched to shallow wide bowls as pots last year and got the best bloom frequency I have ever had... My thought was keeping everyone shallow and dry would make tubers. It worked well for the "bunching" varieties like colorata/nag-kwag/jongkolnee etc. but not so well for those who prefer to make overgrowth rhizhomes. This year I am doing very small tight pots as I am graduating university in summer.

      I wanted to ask you, (and others) if removing the main crown of an overgrowth rhizome will stimulate new eyes to form. Last year I snapped a 4 inch long overgrowth rhizome off a Terri Dunn I was repotting. I discarded the hunk of tissue in a pond and it grew like 3 new plants off it. I and others observed this behavior in hardies... but I didn't think it worked for tropicals. I seem to remember a post on Victoria-adventure about Albert-Greenburg with 100s of babies popping off a "tuber". Then this month Rich Sacher had a social media post showing a pic of a tissue cultured rhizome of a tropical with hundreds of plantlets. I guess my question is in theory if a hunk of rhizome didn't die outright from the trauma of being snapped, would the apical dominance be nulled out (thus allowing scores of babies to pop up)?

      I am strongly considering setting up a tissue culture this year if I have time...

    8. #8
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      I wish you had pictures of the separated crown, but if it produced plantlets...there had to be apical meristem tissue left on it. I should have time to root around the ponds tomorrow and find a tuber or two to show what I mean. The 'Albert Greenberg' was one in Sean Stevens' pond, as I recall. Profuse plantlet production does occur....it is also common in 'Miami Rose'...but generally considered to be problematic; better a few healthy offshoots, than a plethora of weak ones.

      Tissue culture is another process all together. In TC, only meristem cells are harvested and various auxins introduced into the agar culture, that result in cell differentiation. It ain't easy...you need to come up with the proper hormones and timing and it needs to be done in a sterile environment. The best would be a laminar flow hood, but with care a glove box will do. Primary issue, is the tissue sample has to be clean, and submerged aquatic plant samples usually contain "pond" water, a worrisome source of contamination. If you want to try your hand, I have a simple hood designs given me by an acquaintance who is a Bio professor at NC State and a manual on various tissue culture protocols from a Prof in Australia.

      I would simply say...unless you have something new, valuable and slow to propagate...it is not going to be cost efficient for propagating currently available cultivars.
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      Craig

    9. #9
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      Quote Originally Posted by CraigP View Post
      I wish you had pictures of the separated crown, but if it produced plantlets...there had to be apical meristem tissue left on it. I should have time to root around the ponds tomorrow and find a tuber or two to show what I mean. The 'Albert Greenberg' was one in Sean Stevens' pond, as I recall. Profuse plantlet production does occur....it is also common in 'Miami Rose'...but generally considered to be problematic; better a few healthy offshoots, than a plethora of weak ones.

      Tissue culture is another process all together. In TC, only meristem cells are harvested and various auxins introduced into the agar culture, that result in cell differentiation. It ain't easy...you need to come up with the proper hormones and timing and it needs to be done in a sterile environment. The best would be a laminar flow hood, but with care a glove box will do. Primary issue, is the tissue sample has to be clean, and submerged aquatic plant samples usually contain "pond" water, a worrisome source of contamination. If you want to try your hand, I have a simple hood designs given me by an acquaintance who is a Bio professor at NC State and a manual on various tissue culture protocols from a Prof in Australia.

      I would simply say...unless you have something new, valuable and slow to propagate...it is not going to be cost efficient for propagating currently available cultivars.
      I fell like there might have been a little bit of that kind of tissue around the "rim" but honestly the hunk of rhizome was flat on the end like a piece of corn snapped in half. Like I cracked the piece of with the intention of flinging it in the compost pile and missed (landed in a pond)... There was a good 1-2 inch of the rhizome still attached to the host/mother plant I took the rhizome from (no ill effects). Point being that scrap seemed like it should have immediately rotted not made a new plant.

      Im pretty broke busy as a graduating engineer... Probably wouldn't even have the space for a diy laminar cabinet. My thought was that although being aquatic/dirty... tubers/rhizhomes could withstand a real beating chemically. Maybe I could really abuse the material when sterilizing it. There are things I could do to a calloused over rhizome that I couldn't do to a cutting. My biggest concern is I don't know of any publicly available protocols for nymphaea. Also not really sure where the meristem regions are so as not obliterate them on cutting. I also have no idea what hormonal/medium environment would make a waterlily tissue differentiate. Heck I am not sure how cellularly active a dormant tissue like that would be.

      As far as cost it seems like there are $50 kits for teachers/classrooms. TBH I would probably only need to buy some MS medium + BAP Cytokinin... I guess probably the biggest plus is the lack of space... I mean I can comfortably grow a mess of lilies by vegetative means... but it takes a lot of space/time.

      Really I just like learning new things. If I could just consistently repeat my little accident with the Terri dunn rhizome that would be significant for me. Also kinda wonder about forcing vivip leaves in stubborn varieties...

    10. #10
      little_mikey is online now Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by CraigP View Post
      I wish you had pictures of the separated crown, but if it produced plantlets...there had to be apical meristem tissue left on it. I should have time to root around the ponds tomorrow and find a tuber or two to show what I mean. The 'Albert Greenberg' was one in Sean Stevens' pond, as I recall. Profuse plantlet production does occur....it is also common in 'Miami Rose'...but generally considered to be problematic; better a few healthy offshoots, than a plethora of weak ones.

      Tissue culture is another process all together. In TC, only meristem cells are harvested and various auxins introduced into the agar culture, that result in cell differentiation. It ain't easy...you need to come up with the proper hormones and timing and it needs to be done in a sterile environment. The best would be a laminar flow hood, but with care a glove box will do. Primary issue, is the tissue sample has to be clean, and submerged aquatic plant samples usually contain "pond" water, a worrisome source of contamination. If you want to try your hand, I have a simple hood designs given me by an acquaintance who is a Bio professor at NC State and a manual on various tissue culture protocols from a Prof in Australia.

      I would simply say...unless you have something new, valuable and slow to propagate...it is not going to be cost efficient for propagating currently available cultivars.
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      Here is one of the pineapple/overgrowth rhizomes I was talking about... When I fertilize too well these overgrowth rhizomes form in summer... Then no hard tubers get made. I tried snapping these big hunks off and letting them sit like I did with the Terri Dunn that sprouted. Normally don't expect these pineapples to survive... Did it with my False Leopardess and an Islamorada... Haven't checked the Islamorada... but the False Leopardess has new sprouts and the pineapple feels like it has hardened a lot over the winter. My understanding was this type of material is not viable... I guess maybe it might have something to do with incubating the material at 85* F +.

    11. #11
      CraigP's Avatar
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      For the record....TC requires actively growing cells to succeed. Beyond that, I have never discounted the pineapple rhizomes, as your picture shows, they can also sprout. It is just an older rhizome that has a collection of petiole scars. < g > I have noticed, that the pineapples can seem to be less likely to sprout, but they are older plants and really....I have no idea what the life span of a given waterlily rhizome is.

      I'll try and dig some this week to get an idea on what gives. My Aussie pond has some tubers that are ten years old or so and I haven't noticed a lot of leaf production yet. The oldest are likely N. gigantea 'Albert de Lestang', I got years ago from Dr. Strawn ; they are species lilies and not hybrids, so I can't be sure how they compare to what you see in your hybrids.
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      Craig

    12. #12
      little_mikey is online now Senior Member
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      Interesting... Feeling much better now about the hobby with the observation that "pineapples" are not a total loss. I think I remember now watching a videotaped talk of Ken Landon making a fuss about over fertilized lilies being goners (no tubers)... Like wiring plants down in trays for winter or something pretty involved. Felt kinda discouraged.

      Le Stang has been pretty bulletproof for me... Every type of material seems to store. Same with night bloomers.

      Biggest surprise for me is a bunch of "trash" tubers I had forgotten about. Previously had molded over almost completely (poor storage)... then I washed them in hydrogen peroxide... then repacked... forgot about them. Were in super thin bags and were desiccated completely. Every one sprouted explosively... You were not kidding when you said tubers could be stored dried out in mesh bags. Dried out tubers seem to sprout much better for me so far.

    13. #13
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      << You were not kidding when you said tubers could be stored dried out in mesh bags. Dried out tubers seem to sprout much better for me so far. >>

      The trouble is, so many supposed growers these days lack either native curiosity or the observational skills to really know how to best care for the plants they grow. Waterlilies come from one of the most ancient lineages of flowering plants and all Nymphaeaceae are aquatic. The point being, it is only logical to assume the the tuber evolved as a response to enable the plant to survive dry spells. I suspect many, many hobbyists have lost tubers following the Captan, damp sand protocol. I noticed decades ago, when dealing with bulbs of N. lotus imported from West Africa, that though they arrived dry, after a long journey in open weave "onion" bags, that loses were nil. And for long term storage, I keep all Nymphaea bulbs that way.

      If you ever play with Vics....the conventional wisdom has always been to store the seed in 60 deg water. Based on my experience....it is not always necessary. The first abundant spout of V. cruziana seed I had was in batch that I accidentally left outside over winter in a rain barrel ....that at one point even had skim ice one it. Speaking with botanists in Argentina, I learned that Cruziana are native to subtropical areas that frequently experience light frosts. I think they have evolved in such a way, that they benefit from cold stratification. Even beyond that....I now think the seed can also stand some dry periods, as long as the embryo doesn't fry.

      Found these sprouts this week, after rains refilled the rain barrel, that had been dry. A veritable rain barrel resurrection. < g > Never discount your observation, simply because to it contradicted by 'common wisdom'....which when it comes to online peddlers.....seems to be in short supply. < g >
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      Craig

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      Yeah it is just tricky when you don't have years of experience... Also don't want to stick my nose into someone's "special sauce"/proprietary knowledge. Sometimes I feel like there is some conspiracy to perpetuate the idea that tropicals are perishable annuals that need to be repurchased every year. Tub culture doesn't seem to be as big here as the east either. Like I have seen a lot of people in the industry install what I would consider unmanageable ponds for customers so they are forced to pay to have them professionally cleaned once a year.

      Maybe I am strange, but when I loose a variety I feel like I done screwed up royally. Besides it is nice to bank up material and eventually make a really homogenous display of like 5 of the same plant all at once.

      observations are key. Part of it may be climate differences too. Vivip lilies are like cockroaches in Florida... but up north they don't always set down tubers, and get nuked.

    15. #15
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    16. #16
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      I've never been a fan of the vivid....but I have some like 'Peach Blow' and 'Shell Pink' that are stingy producers and I have yet to get a vivid off a 'Bagdad'...but some like 'Islamorada' which are more closely linked to N. micrantha are weeds! Nice ISH....did you buy that from the Florida Aquatic Nursery Amazon Store?
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      Craig

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      Nice ISH....did you buy that from the Florida Aquatic Nursery Amazon Store?
      Does it matter where he bought it, or are you doing advertising for them?
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    18. #18
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      Matters to me...goes to good provenance.
      "Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens." ~ Jimi Hendrix

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      Craig

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      Provenance? They are patented, so all Purple Fantasy come from FAN. But they do not all come from Amazon. FAN sells wholesale to a lot of small aquatic dealers and many are struggling to stay in business. Looks like an ad to me.
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    20. #20
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      Not going to put to many plugs in for Amazon or FAN... but I have used up a few gift cards and gotten some nice plants. Like I even asked specifically (in the messages to vendor) for a tuber on my Foxfire and got a plant with what appears to be a tuber. Also nice to see the "Inspected and Certified" sticker on the box. They even have tetragona, and capensis right now... and Morada bay and tropic sunset. I don't need any more lilies but it is very tempting... really just impressed with the rhizome length on their hardies from FAN. I bought wanvisa on eBay from wherever and 90% of the root mass rotted (still got many plants from it). I have heard that tetragona can be fussy. Given my experiences and likely-hood of an imminent amazon gift card... Gonna be hard to say no. End of plug...

      I have been trying stagnant tannic acid laced water for stingy vivips... TBH the stingy ones at least have the benefit of always surviving. Shirley Bryne waits till the last possible minute to make vivips... then miraculously I get like 5 stupid little plants riding through the winter (and they live).

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