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    Results 41 to 60 of 110

    Thread: There are lies **** lies, and statistics

    1. #41
      Russell Peters's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by BWG View Post
      Sent an email to two lawyers in the family. It's a consensus that if a disclaimer is posted at the testing and with test results and results are not sold commercially nothing can be done legally to prevent. Disclaimer basically would state results are not a certified or sanctioned test and your results may vary.
      Sounds about right. I am not sure there is a way to be 100% accurate. Who certifies the testing equipment? I certainly don’t think setting up a tank at a Koi show in the parking lot will be something you can call any better than the way things are.
      Last edited by Russell Peters; 02-06-2018 at 10:19 PM.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    2. #42
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      If an official level of certification is wanted an engineer with piping certification could be paid to design or give an evaluation that the setup is reasonable and test equipment installed correctly. If you just wanted an opinion that the test is reasonable than an engineer with piping experience would work.

      I doubt club individuals would ever take on an experiment if high dollar consultants are involved. Also would there be a need to be 100% accurate or just close enough to see if mfg specs are reasonable?

    3. #43
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      We all know this whole testing of pumps isn't going to happen. Also why is it all that hard for the consumer to figure on a pump? Either contact birdman or bill and they advise the pump based on pond volume and filtration needs. They get it pretty dang close and good enough for me.

    4. #44
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      I doubt it will ever happen either. It would be an excellent sales pitch for a vendor to have a hands on display showing off a very energy efficient pump.
      Last edited by BWG; 02-06-2018 at 11:43 PM.

    5. #45
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      Quote Originally Posted by BWG View Post
      I doubt it will ever happen either.
      Typical stirring up the pot post done over and over again. Least I can go to bed early tonight now

    6. #46
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      If u had a super efficient pump for everyones needs then you would be a rich man and well respected in the koi community. Back to reality that hasn't happened. Maybe brush less motors can change things In the long run. Most brushless seem to be for indoors though

    7. #47
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      Pump energy efficiency and performance are subjects that many are interested in. Many have been stung in the past or don't like the monthly pond electric bills . If you personally don't like the subject just move on and out.
      Last edited by BWG; 02-06-2018 at 11:58 PM.

    8. #48
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      Quote Originally Posted by BWG View Post
      Sent an email to two lawyers in the family. It's a consensus that if a disclaimer is posted at the testing and with test results and results are not sold commercially nothing can be done legally to prevent. Disclaimer basically would state results are not a certified or sanctioned test and your results may vary.
      Does lack of commercial sales of the data preclude a product disparagement action? No.
      Is it possible to publish comparative data legally? Yes. Consumer Reports and others do it all the time.
      Will a disclaimer eliminate the potential of a lawsuit? No.

      "An allegedly defamatory statement against a company’s product, rather than the company itself, is known as “trade libel” or “product disparagement.” A trade libel claim must prove the same elements as a claim for commercial defamation, except that a claimant must show that the allegedly libelous statement caused damage to the product’s reputation, its value or market share, or the company’s revenue related to the product. A consumer can challenge such a claim, in part, by providing evidence of the statement’s truth."

      From:
      https://www.nationwideconsumerrights...ade-libel.html

      (Side note- product disparagement actions can be based on Federal law and/or state law. While a sound analysis would require a survey of the law in all 50 states, we can focus on the Federal law for this discussion)

      So what does it all mean?
      The element which would be most difficult to establish in this case would be actual malice, which can be avoided with careful presentation of the results, and the disclaimer would be helpful. Judging from venomous statements on various threads on this Board concerning different products, however, the malice element may not be as difficult to establish as one may like. (This is a tongue in cheek statement by the way!)

      The other salient point, of course, is that the "truth" is a defense against the claim. So, if it can be established that the comparison is a reasonable comparison, the truth may set you free. Nonetheless, this is a defense after the action has commenced and the defendant has filed the answer. Ask your family lawyers what the average cost of preparing and filing an answer, and possibly filing a 12b6 motion, would be.
      I am confident your family lawyers will tell you that it is not unusual for a defendant to have one or more sound defenses against an action, but decide that the cost of defending the action is not worth the value received by winning.

      So would the hobbyist group be sued? Likely not. Could they be sued? Yes. Would the hobbyist group win? Good chance- especially if they do everything right. Do courts always get it right? No.

    9. #49
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      Quote Originally Posted by BWG View Post
      Pump energy efficiency and performance is a subject that many are interested in. Many have been stung in the past or don't like the monthly pond electric bills . If you personally don't like the subject just move on and out.
      Got yah. I just feel most pumps are similar that have been out. So maybe new pump designs is the future. I like the subject just don't know the answer to it

    10. #50
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      Quote Originally Posted by kby103 View Post
      Does lack of commercial sales of the data preclude a product disparagement action? No.
      Is it possible to publish comparative data legally? Yes. Consumer Reports and others do it all the time.
      Will a disclaimer eliminate the potential of a lawsuit? No.
      There is also a chance that I will win the next 500 million dollar lottery.
      Last edited by BWG; 02-07-2018 at 12:14 AM.

    11. #51
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      Quote Originally Posted by BWG View Post
      There is also a chance that I will win the next 500 million dollar lottery. ��

      Keep reaching. Almost there

      I'm kidding of course...

    12. #52
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      I could afford a FF then.

    13. #53
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      Quote Originally Posted by BWG View Post
      I could afford a FF then.
      Lol all good

    14. #54
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      With all the legaleze aside, this doesn't seem that hard to make for a start. Maybe some want a whole flow chart which would be hard to
      accomplish, but if we're just after a baseline, couldn't something like this be done pretty easily? And with technology I think it's pretty simple to
      just record the whole test and data collected and there would be no need to haul the device around the country to different shows unless you
      really wanted to...

      Name:  pump test.jpg
Views: 82
Size:  15.4 KB

      --Steve
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    15. #55
      Russell Peters's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      With all the legaleze aside, this doesn't seem that hard to make for a start. Maybe some want a whole flow chart which would be hard to
      accomplish, but if we're just after a baseline, couldn't something like this be done pretty easily? And with technology I think it's pretty simple to
      just record the whole test and data collected and there would be no need to haul the device around the country to different shows unless you
      really wanted to...

      Name:  pump test.jpg
Views: 82
Size:  15.4 KB

      Who is going to certify that the flow meter is accurate and that it was installed properly?
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    16. #56
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      Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
      Who is going to certify that the flow meter is accurate and that it was installed properly?

      Majority rules? I could show it as it goes together to be sure most agree that it's as accurate as we could make it. Not saying it'd be
      perfect but might be closer than just guessing at completely unknown heads and power consumption.

      I've got a lot of containers and several new pumps sitting on the shelf I could start with if there's enough interest.
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    17. #57
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      Quote Originally Posted by BWG View Post
      Sent an email to two lawyers in the family. It's a consensus that if a disclaimer is posted at the testing and with test results and results are not sold commercially nothing can be done legally to prevent. Disclaimer basically would state results are not a certified or sanctioned test and your results may vary.
      What BWG states is very close to reality....
      You can indeed say what you did in a public forum. If you state anything as opinion then you would be in trouble. No matter how poorly a test is done it can be quoted as being a test. Any lawsuit would have to prove intent to harm another before damages could be entertained.
      "We" could easily state how we did each test, and let the consumer decide whether they want to believe us..or the promoters.

      For instance, if we brought the testing structure to a show and ran our "tests" right there anyone could post what they saw us do and the readings online.
      "Those aren't poodles. They're Dobermans with afros."

    18. #58
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      icu2.... I was thinking a similar device but with the return from the pump being a standpipe in the middle of the reservoir it'd be a better visual,,,especially if it showed how much more head it did before it came back down), and perhaps a baffle or two in front of the return to the pump to reduce turbulence at the impeller
      "Those aren't poodles. They're Dobermans with afros."

    19. #59
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      here is what I know...if we did it at the CFKS show just for giggles...just a few of us toss some bits together and see what we see. THAT would be some action in the right direction, and COULD lead some real understanding of what direction we could take.... We all know we have enough time at the shows.... just put word out we are going tot est a few pumps..I have an old "high efficiency/low head pump laying around that I bought ten years ago from a vendor on here..i can't even remember who...I think it is an all light blue motor(?)... It'd be fun to just test some of the pumps. See where it goes. Sort of an informal "Show and tell"....
      Can anyone bring any of the parts needed? fittings, flow meter....?
      "Those aren't poodles. They're Dobermans with afros."

    20. #60
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      Quote Originally Posted by lukef View Post
      icu2.... I was thinking a similar device but with the return from the pump being a standpipe in the middle of the reservoir it'd be a better visual,,,especially if it showed how much more head it did before it came back down), and perhaps a baffle or two in front of the return to the pump to reduce turbulence at the impeller
      The return in the middle of the reservoir would be simple enough...
      The pipe could be easily extended from 0 to whatever head could realistically be supported by a straight pipe rising above the water level in the container if given
      a little support.

      "...and perhaps a baffle or two in front of the return to the pump to reduce turbulence at the impeller"
      I'm not sure what you envision as a baffle. And would a baffle be present in most hobbyist filtration designs? I'm just trying to understand the reasoning behind needing
      one or two in the test set up.
      --Steve
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