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    Thread: There are lies **** lies, and statistics

    1. #21
      Zac Penn's Avatar
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      Your analogy doesn't end well for the chickens in either case. Foxes eat them and the roosters aren't exactly asking for consent! hahahahaha
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    2. #22
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      Quote Originally Posted by Zac Penn View Post
      Your analogy doesn't end well for the chickens in either case. Foxes eat them and the roosters aren't exactly asking for consent! hahahahaha
      and THAT is exactly what I meant ...
      "Those aren't poodles. They're Dobermans with afros."

    3. #23
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    4. #24
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      By any chance is there an independent testing lab that could do the tests for us? It seems like it would be a relatively simple (and therefore not prohibitively expensive) process to run these tests on a well-designed test rig. If some vendors already have their pumps tested and certified by such a lab, could we help the others arrange to have the same testing done? Perhaps some manufacturers (or vendors) don't understand the principles of pump testing or maybe just don't know what kind of information we are interested in.

      Pump manufacturers often provide numbers for gpm (lpm) output @ xx head but don't include wattage numbers (or curves) to go along with the other two. They often provide watt (or worse, amp) ratings for the motor, but if there
      is any truth to the theory that says pumps consume fewer watts as head increases and output decreases, then we definitely need to see the power consumption curves, too. And we need reliable information from an unbiased, reliable source.
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    5. #25
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      Not simple and no credible lab is going to do cheap. Manufactures don't want to be pinned down and it's easier (and SAFER!) to release partial or hazy information. Notice the manufactures lack of cited labs doing the testing or publishing test procedures. Plus add in this is not a huge market and parts substitution has also been an issue. You might not get the exact pump / motor combination that was tested.

      Pumps stating meeting EU standards and sold in the EU are probably more credible but non-commercial hobby pumps is not a segment that is going to target much enforcement.
      Last edited by BWG; 02-06-2018 at 09:21 AM.

    6. #26
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      Quote Originally Posted by BWG View Post
      Not simple and no credible lab is going to do cheap. Manufactures don't want to be pinned down and it's easier (and SAFER!) to release partial or hazy information. Notice the manufactures lack of cited labs doing the testing or publishing test procedures.

      Pumps stating meeting EU standards and sold in the EU are probably more credible but non-commercial hobby pumps is not a segment that is going to target much enforcement.
      Okay, forget I said anything.
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    7. #27
      kimini is offline Senior Member
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      You may as well add air compressors and vacuum cleaners to the list of products with highly questionable specifications. About all we as individuals can do is document the test configuration and post the results.

    8. #28
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      Quote Originally Posted by kimini View Post
      You may as well add air compressors and vacuum cleaners to the list of products with highly questionable specifications. About all we as individuals can do is document the test configuration and post the results.
      Almost everything sold by companies to the public has false information. It is just the way it is. If you listen to the commercials on tv. They pic a word very carefully and give the allusion of how great their product is. Written by lawyers. lol

    9. #29
      Essex Koi is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by kdh View Post
      Almost everything sold by companies to the public has false information. It is just the way it is. If you listen to the commercials on tv. They pic a word very carefully and give the allusion of how great their product is. Written by lawyers. lol
      As someone who is regularly involved in making tv adverts for some very large worldwide companies, I can tell you that the wording is written my marketing then sent to company lawyers to check for possible issues with the claims being made. Itís usually the lawyers who pull it back - they usually have final say on the messaging..especially when the company has been in trouble before with negative pr.

      The issue isnít that however, itís the weakening of public protection authorities worldwide that donít scrutinise them as much as they used to. Here in the UK itís become nigh on impossible to report companies by members of the public on misleading or false claims.

      Having done work across the world, especially the EU, itís just not that strict anymore. If you look on amazon, not only are unknown Chinese companies making outrageous claims, but some big brands too.

      I had a manufacturer recently in trouble over an advert saying they were the biggest selling brand in Europe...yes they were...for one month (when they ran a massive discount promo)...three years ago. The only reason it was noted was that the Ďrealí no.1 brand sued them through the courts.

      Generally speaking no specs or claimed outputs / inputs can be trusted anymore.
      Main pond 4000 US Gallon, 22 Koi. Oase Proficlear Premium + Bio Module, Bitron 120 w UVC, Bakki Shower, Dura 7+ ashp. Grow on tank 600 Gallons with Eazypod Automatic and 70 litre K1 biochamber.

    10. #30
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      Quote Originally Posted by Marlo View Post
      By any chance is there an independent testing lab that could do the tests for us? It seems like it would be a relatively simple (and therefore not prohibitively expensive) process to run these tests on a well-designed test rig. If some vendors already have their pumps tested and certified by such a lab, could we help the others arrange to have the same testing done? Perhaps some manufacturers (or vendors) don't understand the principles of pump testing or maybe just don't know what kind of information we are interested in.

      Pump manufacturers often provide numbers for gpm (lpm) output @ xx head but don't include wattage numbers (or curves) to go along with the other two. They often provide watt (or worse, amp) ratings for the motor, but if there
      is any truth to the theory that says pumps consume fewer watts as head increases and output decreases, then we definitely need to see the power consumption curves, too. And we need reliable information from an unbiased, reliable source.
      You now are seeing and stating EXACTLY the problem... Yet the hobby has not addressed the problem. And it is a big problem. Every one of us has a pump that we believed what we were told by the promoter. And many of them have fabricated the numbers. Wouldn't it be in the BEST INTEREST OF THE HOBBY to invest the resources needed to test all pumps that are likely to be used in the hobby? At this point we rely on what people say. And frankly I don't believe anyone but my dog.
      "Those aren't poodles. They're Dobermans with afros."

    11. #31
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      Quote Originally Posted by BWG View Post
      Not simple and no credible lab is going to do cheap. Manufactures don't want to be pinned down and it's easier (and SAFER!) to release partial or hazy information. Notice the manufactures lack of cited labs doing the testing or publishing test procedures. Plus add in this is not a huge market and parts substitution has also been an issue. You might not get the exact pump / motor combination that was tested.

      Pumps stating meeting EU standards and sold in the EU are probably more credible but non-commercial hobby pumps is not a segment that is going to target much enforcement.
      And now I see another of you has at least stated you recognise that there is a problem within the hobby. That's good!
      But it is not hard at all to come up with some truthful meaningful statistics on pond pumps. If one club with one expert...or even if a vendor like Zac just brought a setup to some of the major shows and "offered" to validate the sellers at the shows flow and energy rates... the thing is some believable numbers need to be created and validated on ALL the pumps that we have at our disposal.
      "We" could even offer to test pumps of hobbyists....just bring your pump in and "we" hook it up. YOU bring in the literature you were told or given on the pumps performance...
      Pump Promoters who have the best pumps would relish the opportunity to have their pumps proven by the hobby. Those that are smoke and mirrors would stay away...
      Just so we understand a little more about the hobby....I remember when Little Giant's Pumps were consider to be very good pumps for circulation..I can even remember that someone was selling the pumps used to drain Dishwashers, and they were considered OK pumps.
      "Those aren't poodles. They're Dobermans with afros."

    12. #32
      lukef's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Essex Koi View Post
      As someone who is regularly involved in making tv adverts for some very large worldwide companies, I can tell you that the wording is written my marketing then sent to company lawyers to check for possible issues with the claims being made. It’s usually the lawyers who pull it back - they usually have final say on the messaging..especially when the company has been in trouble before with negative pr.

      The issue isn’t that however, it’s the weakening of public protection authorities worldwide that don’t scrutinise them as much as they used to. Here in the UK it’s become nigh on impossible to report companies by members of the public on misleading or false claims.

      Having done work across the world, especially the EU, it’s just not that strict anymore. If you look on amazon, not only are unknown Chinese companies making outrageous claims, but some big brands too.

      I had a manufacturer recently in trouble over an advert saying they were the biggest selling brand in Europe...yes they were...for one month (when they ran a massive discount promo)...three years ago. The only reason it was noted was that the ‘real’ no.1 brand sued them through the courts.

      Generally speaking no specs or claimed outputs / inputs can be trusted anymore.
      once again ... EXACTLY!
      the number one profession I do not like is Advertising agents... Their job?? To make something look like what it isn't to the consumer. Which is referred to as lying outside the trade.
      "Those aren't poodles. They're Dobermans with afros."

    13. #33
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      There is an add on tv for Liberty Mutual. They cover the full value of a new car. Adds all over the place.
      What they did not tell you.
      Only in certain states and they charge you more for the coverage. But give the (impression) that it is included in the policy for no charge.
      I talked to my insurance carrier and she said she could get me the same coverage. Just open the wallet a little more.

    14. #34
      lukef's Avatar
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      So? To help ALL hobbyists..
      we should promote establishing a source where "The Real Numbers" can be seen...it could even be here on Koiphen...
      Design a simple system to accurately create the head pressures most associated with koi ponds.
      Have a large container of water. have it so that different sizes of two and four inch piping can be used.
      Establish a solid base where at least a ten foot section of schedule 40 4" pipe can be raise up above the water level in the middle of the water reservoir which can be attached to the pump's discharge side...
      and a high grade flow meter on the return to the pump....
      And a good electrical usage meter....
      JUST GOOD SIMPLE RELIABLE UNBIASED TRANSPARENT(if done at a koi show) DATA...something not found in the hobby since the beginning of it.
      "Those aren't poodles. They're Dobermans with afros."

    15. #35
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      Just a thought: Why don't we (Koiphen members) get some donations going and to get this testing on the way. I'm sure the "pump manufacturers" will gladly let us "borrow" / use their pumps because in the end whatever the results are, which they claim certain GPH at a specific head / wattage usage can be proven and it would in effect give them advertising and promote sales. I can only speak for myself but I would gladly donate to get this project going, granted some volunteers are willing to put in the labor to conduct various tests. I understand everyone's ponds are different with different head / filtration. Some use RDFs, some use bead, some use other means. This testing would help the community and hobbyists out with their future purchases in all price ranges whether be it Flowfriend / Advantage / Performance Pro etc. etc.

    16. #36
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      Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan1982 View Post
      Just a thought: Why don't we (Koiphen members) get some donations going and to get this testing on the way. I'm sure the "pump manufacturers" will gladly let us "borrow" / use their pumps because in the end whatever the results are, which they claim certain GPH at a specific head / wattage usage can be proven and it would in effect give them advertising and promote sales. I can only speak for myself but I would gladly donate to get this project going, granted some volunteers are willing to put in the labor to conduct various tests. I understand everyone's ponds are different with different head / filtration. Some use RDFs, some use bead, some use other means. This testing would help the community and hobbyists out with their future purchases in all price ranges whether be it Flowfriend / Advantage / Performance Pro etc. etc.
      The problem is that the pump manufacturers who do not test well will have every motivation to pursue a legal remedy against whoever publishes the data for hurting their business. This means that to protect one's self legally, the tests would need to be conducted in a "fair" manner. Anyone want to take a wild guess as to what the"fair" manner would likely be according to a court? If you guess testing by a certified laboratory you win the prize. Any other methodology/system may be a bit more difficult to defend.

      Of course, individual hobbyists who simply test out different pumps on their own system and share the actual results along with system details would seem to be simply publishing facts about their experience which on its face would seem to be reasonable. I think the issue may be more clouded when there is an organized effort, such as "sharing" pumps, test equipment, etc. It might be useful to research into whether this is protected.

    17. #37
      Zac Penn's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by kby103 View Post
      The problem is that the pump manufacturers who do not test well will have every motivation to pursue a legal remedy against whoever publishes the data for hurting their business. This means that to protect one's self legally, the tests would need to be conducted in a "fair" manner. Anyone want to take a wild guess as to what the"fair" manner would likely be according to a court? If you guess testing by a certified laboratory you win the prize. Any other methodology/system may be a bit more difficult to defend.

      Of course, individual hobbyists who simply test out different pumps on their own system and share the actual results along with system details would seem to be simply publishing facts about their experience which on its face would seem to be reasonable. I think the issue may be more clouded when there is an organized effort, such as "sharing" pumps, test equipment, etc. It might be useful to research into whether this is protected.
      That is a VERY important point that needs to be considered. I certainly can't afford to be sued over this kind of testing
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    18. #38
      BWG is online now Senior Member
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      If you advertised and sold (certified) testing results or used the results as some type of certified standard for selling or promoting a product there might be a slim chance of getting a letter to cease and desist. There would be an even slimmer chance of being sued because lawsuits are expensive. If you win there is an even lesser chance of collecting. The chance of a group of hobbyists publishing a review getting sued is non-existant. Look at the million plus negative product reviews on YouTube and the internet.

      Not an issue. This is your right as a consumer to state an educated opinion.
      Last edited by BWG; 02-06-2018 at 04:33 PM.

    19. #39
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      There is a significant difference between reviewing a product that you have personally purchased and used (not a problem) and an organized testing program (potential problem).

      There is also a significant difference between the cost of bringing a suit and the cost of a complete litigation. It is relatively inexpensive to file a lawsuit, especially for corporation with attorneys on the payroll. Answering that complaint, for a "group of hobbyists", would not be as inexpensive, and would likely not be done. Thus, the cost of a default judgment for the corporation is relatively small. Any damages in a default judgement would be joint and several, with the main remedy being an injunction which would be easily enforced.

      The real disincentive lies in the fact that companies tend to not like suing their customers. If, however, a testing program would devastate their market, the disincentive would evaporate.

    20. #40
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      Sent an email to two lawyers in the family. It's a consensus that if a disclaimer is posted at the testing and with test results and results are not sold commercially nothing can be done legally to prevent. Disclaimer basically would state results are not a certified or sanctioned test and your results may vary.

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