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    Thread: There are lies **** lies, and statistics

    1. #1
      lukef's Avatar
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      There are lies **** lies, and statistics

      I cut and pasted this response from another thread so it could be discussed on its own merit right here. I do not want any of you to cloud the water by mentioning a single manufacturer or direct a comment at a specific person. I ask that the moderators just delete any thread where a person talks of another person or a specific product So that JUST the issue can be discussed.

      The subject below has been the case for the 20 years I have been in the hobby...THIS HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE CASE. And it does not need to be, and it should be the leadership of the hobby that could step in and protect EVERY pond builder and owner from the Manufacturer/promoter's fake data.

      Below is Marlo's post. He cuts and pastes BWG's post in the same thread and replies to it. The point I would like to get some consensus on is that the leaders in the hobby should be addressing issues that affect us all. And nothing affects us more than the misleading disinformation on pond pumps. We have people in the hobby that are wizards when it comes to pumps' flows and energy consumption. If they were provided with a little support then they could have the means to easily test each and every pump we felt should be considered for use in pond maintenance.
      Manufacturers/Promoters of various pumps could either send their pumps or take their pumps to be "independently" tested for use by our hobby. It would be the gold standard for determining what these expensive(to purchase and operate) pumps actually do.

      Originally Posted by BWG View Post
      "Until you measure - its only a guess. It might be 10,982 or less."

      I think this is a major flaw in all these arguments - we all like to talk numbers, but most of the numbers we use are guesses - or worse, opinions. It makes it difficult to give much credence to most of what gets posted here. I've always wanted to install flow meters, but they aren't normally stocked by most of our Koi pond suppliers and I have been too ignorant to figure it out myself. I'm only aware of one of our members who has installed equipment that monitors watts, RPM, and flow, and because he has more money than god, one might get the impression that we mere mortals can never aspire to such a system. We don't have a good way to measure head so it's difficult, even if we know those three operational parameters for one setup, to extrapolate the data to accurately predict performance in a different setup.

      It's confounding, and all the opinion wars don't help very much.

      I was at Advantage Manufacturing yesterday talking with Mike and Lyann and they were very open to exploring any new pump technology and manufacturing ideas. In fact, they are on their way to China today to meet with their manufacturing and supply partners, so I hope that a little of what I told them about the pumps we've been discussing on this thread will make it into those meetings. Some negative things have been posted about them here, but I believe they are genuinely good folks and that it would be mutually beneficial for us to work closer with them to get the kind of equipment we need and to make sure the technical specifications they provide are accurate and relevant for us.
      "Those aren't poodles. They're Dobermans with afros."

    2. #2
      kevin32's Avatar
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      Edit.... mentioned manufacturer names
      Last edited by kevin32; 02-06-2018 at 10:27 PM.

    3. #3
      kevin32's Avatar
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      Seems William came and left and now Luke has has erupted. Not sure the incentive but many pump manufacturers are off both in pools and in ponds flow numbers. We just get more sensitive since some don't see koi ponds as a luxury

    4. #4
      lukef's Avatar
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      all i am saying is that IF the Koi Hobbyists want to do something that will improve the pleasure of all hobbyists then having the Koi leaders find the facts on pumps would be a very good service.
      "Those aren't poodles. They're Dobermans with afros."

    5. #5
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      Quote Originally Posted by lukef View Post
      all i am saying is that IF the Koi Hobbyists want to do something that will improve the pleasure of all hobbyists then having the Koi leaders find the facts on pumps would be a very good service.
      Totally agree here . I'm not just trying to bark up the wrong tree Luke. It is hard to trust the pump specs. In general though most baldor pumps with different wet end see the same amps drawn. Generally 1/3 hp with pump basket flow about 6400 got at 3 feet and i was using over 380 watts on this after the zakki sieve. Now I'm running 160 watt off another pump
      Last edited by kevin32; 02-06-2018 at 10:28 PM.

    6. #6
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      It is such a shame to see that this thread has already been ruined,
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    7. #7
      lukef's Avatar
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      Yep, you posted about the topic and then just had to start posting certain manufactured pumps and motors. What I was hoping to get moving was the actual NEED of all hobbyists in the Koi World...THE TRUTH.
      Something that would help every beginning koi "pond owner", and everyone that needs a certain pump for a certain situation, or a replacement....
      What WE need to talk about
      discussing it in general
      figuring out who to trust
      figuring out a flexible set up.... ( head heights, diameter pipes, pump elevation etc )
      figuring out what to buy...
      and finding the money.... perhaps donations for each item, or a benefactor if the amount is low enough

      Then perhaps Protocols for testing concerning how pumps are acquired(the cheapest being that pump makers would send a pump, the next cheapest is to get members that are sure they want a certain pump to send it to be tested before they use it. If this thing flies we should be able to get Manufacturers to give a pump to be independently tested for verification.)

      But the first things are to talk about it and get some headwind. To make it a goal, to increase the need to establish a central testing entity so all the hobbyists can have facts and not the bs We have lived with since we first looked at getting a pump.
      This is no small thing. Think about it. It is an expensive device. the most expensive device when you consider running costs. And we can only believe the person trying to make money convincing us to buy them.

      financing for the test equipment
      "Those aren't poodles. They're Dobermans with afros."

    8. #8
      Zac Penn's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by lukef View Post
      Yep, you posted about the topic and then just had to start posting certain manufactured pumps and motors. What I was hoping to get moving was the actual NEED of all hobbyists in the Koi World...THE TRUTH.
      Something that would help every beginning koi "pond owner", and everyone that needs a certain pump for a certain situation, or a replacement....
      What WE need to talk about
      discussing it in general
      figuring out who to trust
      figuring out a flexible set up.... ( head heights, diameter pipes, pump elevation etc )
      figuring out what to buy...
      and finding the money.... perhaps donations for each item, or a benefactor if the amount is low enough

      Then perhaps Protocols for testing concerning how pumps are acquired(the cheapest being that pump makers would send a pump, the next cheapest is to get members that are sure they want a certain pump to send it to be tested before they use it. If this thing flies we should be able to get Manufacturers to give a pump to be independently tested for verification.)

      But the first things are to talk about it and get some headwind. To make it a goal, to increase the need to establish a central testing entity so all the hobbyists can have facts and not the bs We have lived with since we first looked at getting a pump.
      This is no small thing. Think about it. It is an expensive device. the most expensive device when you consider running costs. And we can only believe the person trying to make money convincing us to buy them.

      financing for the test equipment
      This is going to be the biggest obstacle! There is no perfect person/organization that would be trusted by everyone. I love this idea, and hope you guys can figure out a way to make it happen. I am very interested to see what kind of testing stations you guys can think of (so that I can steal the best parts of each design) because I would like to make something for my own fun and games, but I don't have the time to sit down and really think it out. I have too many other balls up in the air right now!
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    9. #9
      lukef's Avatar
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      The testing stations will be very limited. maybe three standard test stations...One with ZERO head for airlifters. One for very little head for the RDF guys, one for waterfalls and PMS, .....and then there might be one for bead filters(?) types.
      Any pump promoter that would not fall in one of those categories could send their pump and any additional gear needed to prove their flow and energy consumption.

      here is my good ol' boy reconning two one thousand gallon tanks containing a few baffles with a flow measuring device between the two. THAT is where the measuring takes place. THAT one bit needs to be dialed in. No more putting it before or after a pump...we use the same device on every test.
      of course various diameter pipes and heights will need to be screwed on to give the data for the right head and such... but it wouldn't cost much in terms of tanks and pipes.... the most expensive piing could be needed by the airlift guys that want to show airlifts 6ft tall in a ten inch diameter pipe.
      But all the normal stuff could be patched in to the "testing station" in just a few minutes.
      The real thing is getting just a few people in the hobby to actually acknowledge this IS so needed, and to help. Heck even you could be one of "The Man"s. if you Zac and Birdman all set up the same testing stations then it'd be difficult for anyone to fake the numbers.
      AKCA type organizations should also consider bringing the testing station to the shows and having people bring their pumps and we could make it an event to attend... Companies could prove themselves, and hobbyists could show what they invented.... it sure would beat the hell outta looking at the same ol same old.
      and it would provide a great service to the hobby by dispelling or proving what pumps do what.
      "Those aren't poodles. They're Dobermans with afros."

    10. #10
      Zac Penn's Avatar
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      Luke, you are coming to CFKS this year right? Spread the word around to the powers at be and lets get something like this worked out for next years event. Maybe the show can donate a space to the testing station so no one group has to pay for it. I am all booked up getting ready for this years show, but if we start planning for next year we should be a go for some on site playing. If we can all decide on a testing station design, come up with some protocols for everyone to build around it should be easy for anyone to bring a pump and hook it up.
      Zac Penn.... Please sign-up for our MAILING LIST HERE
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    11. #11
      lukef's Avatar
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      Yep zac.
      If we could get two tanks hooked together with a 4 inch pvc pipe and a flow meter on it IN THE PARKING LOT we could have some serious intrigue.... Walk up to all the booths with a big group of hobbyists and ask if they wouldn't mind proving their GPH and energy usage rates.... we could even use two show tanks that aren't being used....
      "Those aren't poodles. They're Dobermans with afros."

    12. #12
      kevin32's Avatar
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      Seems all the flow friend have been tested by a govt certification from a testing facility. So seems the ff is clear of any lies at least

    13. #13
      cindy's Avatar
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      Guess I'm too late on deleting posts with names
      My opinions in ER and on this forum are mine only. Use my advice at your own discretion.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."


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    14. #14
      kevin32's Avatar
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      To make a post like this and then ask the mods to delete any names mentioned is kinda loco. I guess we will just wait for these test benches and then mention names I guess.

    15. #15
      lukef's Avatar
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      the crux was to get on the same page and promote testing...not claims
      "Those aren't poodles. They're Dobermans with afros."

    16. #16
      Zac Penn's Avatar
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      Just in case anyone wondered how these ultrasonic flow meters worked...



      I think the clamp on suits are the way to go so that we can outfit them onto any sized pipe without any issues. How accurate the economic ones are will have to be determined, but I really like the fact that the sound waves travel across the entire flow path of the liquid. This help remove the variation caused by turbulence/swirling of the water in the pipe. Paddlewheel sensors do not have that luxury so swirling will make the sensor read all over the place if it isn't placed in the proper spot.

      For the testing of water pumps alone I think the best testing station idea was from BWG...
      Name:  SmartSelectImage_2018-01-30-18-15-34.jpg
Views: 490
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      Simple to implement, no loss of water level in the suction tank, easily adjust head pressure with the valve (probably should be a screw type gate valve for micro-adjustments) but a super smooth ball valve may work as well. The most important things would be to have an accurate flow meter and pressure gauge.
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    17. #17
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      Has anyone checked out the US Regulations? This one appears to be the correct one as it includes pool pumps and waterfall pumps. I have not tracked down the actual test equipment requirements tat are referenced.

      https://www.regulations.gov/docket?D...016-BT-TP-0002

      Interestingly, in the literature I have read it appears that for at least some pumps they do not allow for field testing due to the inaccuracies. Not sure what level of inaccuracy they are discussing...

      " Industry experience shows that it is very difficult to perform measurements accurate enough to satisfy the requirements in this standard when testing is performed in the field. Therefore field-testing is not permitted as a method of efficiency testing per this standard."
      (http://estore.pumps.org/Standards/Ro...estingPDF.aspx)

      It is worth noting that if a company is using inaccurate pump curves as a selling aid, competitors would at least arguably be entitled to bring an action under the Lanham Act (false advertising).

    18. #18
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      The second link is the Hydraulic Institute. It's a private industry consortium of pump and testing equipment mfg's and facilities. They pretty much dictate and control the standards the US government publishes. If you want additional test info it appears you have buy it from them or attend their training. Most likely the standards are written in a way that benefit their members.

      The level of consumer testing mentioned in the thread is just to validate if manufactures charts are close to what is stated and don't need the level of precision a manufacture needs to publish.

      After looking at several US pond pumps no testing standards are referenced. For the US not sure if there are any enforcement or requirement on the standards. Not sure of this but can't find any details of enforcement.
      Last edited by BWG; 02-04-2018 at 08:00 PM.

    19. #19
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      Quote Originally Posted by kevin32 View Post
      To make a post like this and then ask the mods to delete any names mentioned is kinda loco. I guess we will just wait for these test benches and then mention names I guess.
      It was Luke's thread and he asked not to mention any brands or names. You could have started your own thread.
      My opinions in ER and on this forum are mine only. Use my advice at your own discretion.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."


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    20. #20
      lukef's Avatar
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      As seen in some of the above undesired posts every pump promoter makes their own claims...All I am saying is that IF the leaders of the hobby could recoognize how relying on the Foxes to guard the henhouse is not pleasant for the chickens...
      We chickens need to get a rooster to step up so the fox can't do what the Rooster does
      "Those aren't poodles. They're Dobermans with afros."

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