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    Thread: Need Advice

    1. #1
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      Need Advice

      I've had a pond since 2006 and luckily have never had any major issues until now. I added 4 new Koi to my pond about 2 weeks ago and now I had one of my older koi die and several others are at the bottom fins drawn in, classic signs something is wrong. Water tests are fine, I've scraped and scoped the koi that died and not finding anything. I have a 13k gallon pond with about 25 koi. I know i'm rambling here but I'm in a bit of a panic what to do. I have PP and debating if I should just dose the whole pond. I feel I need to do something but don't want to make things worse. Any suggestions?

    2. #2
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      Without a scrape and scope of one of the living fish, not much to go on, but PP will take care of most parasites and you have it available. I would suspect the incoming fish brought in something like costia, which will kill quickly, so go for the PP for starters. Follow with Prazi as soon as you can get it in case the problem is flukes, which PP is not as good at taking care of.

      For the PP, for most established ponds, there is enough organics in the pond to consume a large amount of PP, so start with 4ppm, adding slowly with lots of aeration. If it doesn't keep a purple color on the first try, then wait a day and do it again. The dose for the second day needs to be determined by the amount of time the color stayed purple. If only 1/2 hour or less, do the 4ppm again, if 1/2 hour to 1 hour, go with 3ppm, and if over 1 hour, then just 2ppm. If the color stays for at least 4 hours, but better 6 or 8 hours, then do not redose.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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    3. #3
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      Quote Originally Posted by RichToyBox View Post
      Without a scrape and scope of one of the living fish, not much to go on, but PP will take care of most parasites and you have it available. I would suspect the incoming fish brought in something like costia, which will kill quickly, so go for the PP for starters. Follow with Prazi as soon as you can get it in case the problem is flukes, which PP is not as good at taking care of.

      For the PP, for most established ponds, there is enough organics in the pond to consume a large amount of PP, so start with 4ppm, adding slowly with lots of aeration. If it doesn't keep a purple color on the first try, then wait a day and do it again. The dose for the second day needs to be determined by the amount of time the color stayed purple. If only 1/2 hour or less, do the 4ppm again, if 1/2 hour to 1 hour, go with 3ppm, and if over 1 hour, then just 2ppm. If the color stays for at least 4 hours, but better 6 or 8 hours, then do not redose.
      The Koi was still alive and I used clove oil to put him under then scraped, I scaped him 3 times without finding anything. I will do the PP now. What's bad I have to work this weekend 12 hrs shifts and can't take off. Hope this helps, I know they are only koi but this is very upsetting, I have two on their sides now.

    4. #4
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      Good luck. Hope this knocks it out quickly.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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      I added 1 teaspoon per 1000 gallons and had .5 PPM, added another dose and have 1.0 PPM. Would you recommend dosing again, I'm afraid it's stressing them out. How long should I wait to put in the hydrogen peroxide? I've used PP many times to clean up the pond but never with sick fish.

    6. #6
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      Sorry to flake out on you last night. The recommended dose is 2PPM maintained for 4 to 6 hours, so you could have gone for more. The PP burns off with time so unless you have test strips or equipment to measure the quantity, subsequent doses should be done daily until you are able to maintain purple color for that time frame. I don't like to use the peroxide until I am sure that I want it ended. Once the peroxide is added, it can take 3 or 4 days to get all of the peroxide out of the system, making it impossible to do another PP treatment for a few days.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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    7. #7
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      Quote Originally Posted by RichToyBox View Post
      Sorry to flake out on you last night. The recommended dose is 2PPM maintained for 4 to 6 hours, so you could have gone for more. The PP burns off with time so unless you have test strips or equipment to measure the quantity, subsequent doses should be done daily until you are able to maintain purple color for that time frame. I don't like to use the peroxide until I am sure that I want it ended. Once the peroxide is added, it can take 3 or 4 days to get all of the peroxide out of the system, making it impossible to do another PP treatment for a few days.
      Thanks for the input. I ended up doing 3 doses of PP getting 1.5 - 2 PPM (I have test strips) for only 2.5 hrs and added HP to neutralize it.
      Ponds 13k gallons and I've done a 30% water change.
      Majority of the koi appear to be doing better but have a few sitting at the bottom and some even looking dead until I go to net them.

      My game plan is to do another 2 PPM PP treatment Monday morning for 4-6 hrs. I've read salt might be a good thing to add, does salt affect PP? Should I use salt? If so at what level?

      I know I'm not out of the woods yet but feel the PP is helping and was encouraging to see most swimming last night.
      All input and suggestions are greatly appreciated.

    8. #8
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      I will let Rich continue to advise you on PP, I've never used it. I wouldn't add salt at this time, in the event you need to use a different medication that is best not used w/ salt. Keep your aeration cranked and keep watching your water parameters in case your filter is set back.
      Andrea
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    9. #9
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      Salt was once a good treatment, but due to over use, the parasites have supposedly become immune to it, unless you use upward of 0.6% (5# per 100 gallon). I like salt for defined ich infestations as it is constantly there to kill the young as they leave the cysts and become free swimming, which is the only time that you can kill them. I would just stick with the PP for now. Glad to see that you have the test strips, since color is such a poor indicator of concentration. Maintain, as best you can, the 2PPM for the 4 to 6 hours minimum.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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    10. #10
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      I must of added too much hydrogen peroxide Friday night since I've just added 2 does of PP and it's being ate up. Should i just keep adding PP until I get 2 PPM or am I wasting PP and time only gets rid of HP?

    11. #11
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      Time may be better at eating the HP than the PP, but if you keep adding PP, then the HP will be consumed and the PP will start to stick around. There was something that I read that said that HP would kill PP for up to 3 days, but I think it has more to do with the amount of unreacted HP on day one and the organics available for it to continue to remove.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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    12. #12
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      Update

      I treated with PP a 2nd time and after clearing the water with HP it revealed majority of my koi swimming. And had 4 which appeared to be dead at the bottom but would swim away when I tried to net them. This morning I only had two at the bottom, which one was actually dead and I have put the other under with clove oil. I scraped and scoped both going in the gills this time and found no parasites. Majority of the koi are acting normal again with a couple a little sluggish.
      If this was a virus would the koi recover? From what I have read there is no cure if it is a virus.
      Any suggestions on what I should do next or just maintain the pond like normal and wait & see.
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    13. #13
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      In looking at the pictures, it appears that the sanke has sunken eyes, emaciation, heavy veining, and a notch in the nose. These are typical signs of costia infestation. It is also the signs of KHV. If it looks like you may lose another, I would try to send it to one of the labs that test for KHV, your closest being University of Georgia, http://vet.uga.edu/idl/pdf/Sample_pr...s_Testing2.pdf, call before sending.

      KHV usually kills many fish and kills fast. I suspect, and would hope that you are dealing with costia, which are very hard to see and identify in a scrape and scope. The PP should have killed off the costia, so the other fish should start to heal.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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    14. #14
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      Sorry for your loss. I just came upon this post, and agree with everything that Rich says. I just wanted to add that I don't like stopping PP with hydrogen peroxide, because it drops the oxidation reduction potential (ORP) suddenly, which can cause harm to the fish.

      If you get a chance, these two threads from long ago cover various aspects of PP and sodium percarbonate (basically powdered hydrogen peroxide) use. They're very long threads, but well worth the read. Note, the sodium percarbonate thread also covers permanganate use in a few posts.

      Sodium percarbonate use and potassium permanganate use:


      http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...m+percarbonate


      http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...rmanganate+use


      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."






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      So is it safe to say if it was KHV none of the koi would have recovered?
      I have the scope at 400 magnification and see no movement.
      Last night I had a koi flashing but the rest appear ok acting normal, I lightly fed them and they eagerly ate (water 61F)
      I'm going to treat with PP in the morning to be on the safe side.


      Quote Originally Posted by RichToyBox View Post
      In looking at the pictures, it appears that the sanke has sunken eyes, emaciation, heavy veining, and a notch in the nose. These are typical signs of costia infestation. It is also the signs of KHV. If it looks like you may lose another, I would try to send it to one of the labs that test for KHV, your closest being University of Georgia, http://vet.uga.edu/idl/pdf/Sample_pr...s_Testing2.pdf, call before sending.

      KHV usually kills many fish and kills fast. I suspect, and would hope that you are dealing with costia, which are very hard to see and identify in a scrape and scope. The PP should have killed off the costia, so the other fish should start to heal.

    16. #16
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      Quote Originally Posted by Cessnatpa View Post
      So is it safe to say if it was KHV none of the koi would have recovered?
      I have the scope at 400 magnification and see no movement.
      Last night I had a koi flashing but the rest appear ok acting normal, I lightly fed them and they eagerly ate (water 61F)
      I'm going to treat with PP in the morning to be on the safe side.
      I get home from work today and the koi flashing yesterday is now acting normal like the rest of them. As of now everything is back to normal, I guess time will tell.

    17. #17
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      It sounds like the PP treatment has done its thing. Keep an eye on them and hope that the healing continues. It sometimes takes a few days for the weakest ones to decide if they are going to make it and come around. Keep good water parameters, and an eye on behavior. I think you have it.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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    18. #18
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      Well I thought the problem was over but a few days ago I had another koi in distress and a 2nd one last night.
      All the other koi are acting normal, eating and swimming as nothing is wrong.
      Is this a sign of KHV where it slowly takes out one at a time?

      The University of Florida has a research lab 10 minutes from my house but they will not deal with a hobbyist I have to get a referral from a vet which I've been going in circles trying to get one to refer me.
      If it is a virus from what I've learned there is no cure. Besides knowing is there really any point checking for a virus?
      I could be wrong but don't think it's parasites, but I will scrape and scope again.
      This will make 6 koi dead, 18 more to go.

    19. #19
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      Does the University of Florida have the necessary tools and knowledge to test for KHV. I know that University of Georgia had the capability and would test for individuals. If they have the capability, talk to the members of the local koi club, or the people associated with the Orlando show and see if any of them have a vet that they use for their koi, that they would recommend for producing the referral.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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      Another died

      I came home today and found one of my koi has died. But miraculously the other koi that has been laying sideways on the bottom for days is now swimming, slowly but appears to be recovering. All other koi are eagerly eating and acting normal.
      The one that died in the pic has always been a skinny runt
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