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    Thread: nitrates and koi health

    1. #21
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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      I don't claim to know anything about the science behind it all but all I can say is my 7 or so 20"+ fish in about 4k gallons
      with a shower and changing 25 gallons of water every 5 hours on a timer leaves me with 0 nitrates or at least the test
      is bright yellow every time.
      Just fwiw...
      By the books...

    2. #22
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      That’s mean we can only have 1-2 large koi for our little ponds mr Doman
      Overcrowding is the answer simply
      M.Nguyen


    3. #23
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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      I don't claim to know anything about the science behind it all but all I can say is my 7 or so 20"+ fish in about 4k gallons
      with a shower and changing 25 gallons of water every 5 hours on a timer leaves me with 0 nitrates or at least the test
      is bright yellow every time.
      Just fwiw...
      The 5% water change every week is probably enough to keep it from building up.

    4. #24
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      Just a gentle reminder for folk testing for nitrates. Shake your test reagents well as directed before starting.
      I did one test without doing so and got 0ppm. Re-read the instructions, repeated the test, and got 40-80ppm.
      The reagents apparently come out of solution when left to stand too long.

    5. #25
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      Quote Originally Posted by kevin32 View Post
      Yeah but honestly ive used way less water with my small intex vs my 3800 gallon pond im redoing. Ive found 2.5 turnover rate and rdf has cut back alot.
      Just compare your 2 ponds: the intex is way overstock, but has RDF and shower. The main pond has much lower stock, NO RDF and has more nitrate.

      Maybe the RDF is the main factor? It is a mechanical filter and remove all these pollutants and prevent them from decomposing which is the sources of ammonia->nitrite->nitrate? by removing the pollutants, it reduces all ammonia, nitrite and nitrate?

      hp.

    6. #26
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      Quote Originally Posted by DragonFireSG View Post
      Just a gentle reminder for folk testing for nitrates. Shake your test reagents well as directed before starting.
      I did one test without doing so and got 0ppm. Re-read the instructions, repeated the test, and got 40-80ppm.
      The reagents apparently come out of solution when left to stand too long.
      Very important.

    7. #27
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      Quote Originally Posted by audioenvy View Post
      The 5% water change every week is probably enough to keep it from building up.
      more like a 21% water change a week
      Last edited by kevin32; 4 Days Ago at 10:39 AM.

    8. #28
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      Quote Originally Posted by hp View Post
      Just compare your 2 ponds: the intex is way overstock, but has RDF and shower. The main pond has much lower stock, NO RDF and has more nitrate.

      Maybe the RDF is the main factor? It is a mechanical filter and remove all these pollutants and prevent them from decomposing which is the sources of ammonia->nitrite->nitrate? by removing the pollutants, it reduces all ammonia, nitrite and nitrate?

      hp.
      that's probably more like it. I'm loving life with a rdf

    9. #29
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      Quote Originally Posted by kevin32 View Post
      more like a 21% water change a week
      Ok, let's check my math to see where I went wrong: 24 x 7 hours in a week divided by 5 hours between each = 34 micro changes per week

      34 changes at 25 gallons per change = 850 gallons.

      850 / 4000 = 0.21

      Right you are!!

    10. #30
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      Quote Originally Posted by audioenvy View Post
      Ok, let's check my math to see where I went wrong: 24 x 7 hours in a week divided by 5 hours between each = 34 micro changes per week

      34 changes at 25 gallons per change = 850 gallons.

      850 / 4000 = 0.21

      Right you are!!
      nice. only subject I was ever good at was math and still failed that lol

    11. #31
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      Quote Originally Posted by audioenvy View Post
      Ok, let's check my math to see where I went wrong: 24 x 7 hours in a week divided by 5 hours between each = 34 micro changes per week

      34 changes at 25 gallons per change = 850 gallons.

      850 / 4000 = 0.21

      Right you are!!
      This is technically not accurate. A single water change a week of 21% would equal a 21% water change per week. A interval change throughout the week does not equate to an actual 21% water change per week. You have to factor in the dilution of the 25 gallons into the 4000 gallons, then the removal is now only a fraction of an actual change. I know you guys all know that... just wanted to squash another one of kevin32's theory. LOL

    12. #32
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      Quote Originally Posted by Doman71 View Post
      This is technically not accurate. A single water change a week of 21% would equal a 21% water change per week. A interval change throughout the week does not equate to an actual 21% water change per week. You have to factor in the dilution of the 25 gallons into the 4000 gallons, then the removal is now only a fraction of an actual change. I know you guys all know that... just wanted to squash another one of kevin32's theory. LOL

    13. #33
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      maybe he is doing a 3% a day change lol or .125 an hour?
      Last edited by kevin32; 4 Days Ago at 02:49 PM.

    14. #34
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      Quote Originally Posted by Doman71 View Post
      This is technically not accurate. A single water change a week of 21% would equal a 21% water change per week. A interval change throughout the week does not equate to an actual 21% water change per week. You have to factor in the dilution of the 25 gallons into the 4000 gallons, then the removal is now only a fraction of an actual change. I know you guys all know that... just wanted to squash another one of kevin32's theory. LOL
      You are right! It is equivalent to a single 18.6% change.

    15. #35
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      It's actual main purpose is to remove debris from the pond bottom so the fact that it does a
      water change too (whatever the rate turns out to be) is sort of inconsequential. I up the frequency
      or volume of the flush to account for the waste on the pond floor but not for how much water it changes.
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    16. #36
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      It has been debated before about weekly big water change vs continuous flow and no consensus on which results in a lower nitrate value for the same amount of water used.

      Big water changes results in highs and lows and uneven bio filter loading. Bio filters are most efficient when operated at a steady state. Small frequent water exchanges or continuous flow for commercially raised fish is almost 100%.

    17. #37
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      Quote Originally Posted by kevin32 View Post
      I made a thread awhile back called truth about nitrates and do to some technical problem it got deleted on accident.

      Karl has stated in a sticky thread that high nitrates can lead to ulcers. I do feel nitrates at 40 ppm or less is important to long term health. I had about 80-120 ppm before and had ulcer problems 2 winters in a row. I've since improved filtration and have 20ppm now and my fish are doing well and super active even at lower water temps. we often check for ammonia and nitrites but nitrates is important as well.

      This is karls advice.

      Nitrate: "Some is always present". A trace is fine. More than that: do a water change. Nitrate is called the silent killer. It is usually not monitored very well by the average koi keeper. If the levels slowly become high due to lack of water changes it will cause ulcer disease and death. Symptoms are often called "dropsy". The most common reason for Nitrates to rise is lack of water changes.
      I think your fish had ulcers before because of bad water quality, not nitrates, and when you improved your filtration and keeping skills your issues were not as bad. I do not believe it has anything to do with Nitrates. Notice that you posted “ the most common reason for nitrates to rise is the lack of water changes.” That says A lot. If you are not doing water changes then the issue could just be from bad water. Some people also have nitrates in their water which means their levels wouldn’t change much with water changes.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    18. #38
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      Quote Originally Posted by BWG View Post
      It has been debated before about weekly big water change vs continuous flow and no consensus on which results in a lower nitrate value for the same amount of water used.

      Big water changes results in highs and lows and uneven bio filter loading
      . Bio filters are most efficient when operated at a steady state. Small frequent water exchanges or continuous flow for commercially raised fish is almost 100%.
      I have heard of this many times. Can you explain ?

    19. #39
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      Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
      I think your fish had ulcers before because of bad water quality, not nitrates, and when you improved your filtration and keeping skills your issues were not as bad. I do not believe it has anything to do with Nitrates. Notice that you posted “ the most common reason for nitrates to rise is the lack of water changes.” That says A lot. If you are not doing water changes then the issue could just be from bad water. Some people also have nitrates in their water which means their levels wouldn’t change much with water changes.
      true. so you don't feel high nitrates can lead to health issues or just in my case it was more poor water quality? I also did go into winter prior years with skinny koi and way underfed. this year all the koi are nice and fat and as you mentioned the filtration is by far the best I've had and was a huge leap for me I feel.

      i have over $5600 in filtration on a $80 pool lol. who does that though..... me lol
      Last edited by kevin32; 3 Days Ago at 08:00 PM.

    20. #40
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      If the amount of nutrient being produced per time period is 1% and the water change is with water that has 0% but at the 10% rate for the same time frame, the steady state value will be accomplished when the 10% removal equals 1%, or the amount being produced. That occurs when the level becomes 10%, remove 10% of that gives 9% and then the production of 1% brings the value back to 10%. How long it takes to get there is dependent on where you start, as if you start with 100% then the first 10% removal will be 10% leaving 90% but add 1 % and then do a 10% and remove 9.1%, but you are now down to 81.8% and the closer you get to the 10% the slower the change.

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