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    Thread: ID and help please

    1. #1
      Ubiquitous is offline Supporting Member
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      ID and help please

      Just noticed this on one of my Koi this morning. I have not had time to inspect all fish in the pond yet, I will do that tonight or tomorrow at latest.
      Please let me know what you believe this is and the care instructions.
      Outdoor pond, San Diego CA. NO3 0, NO2 0, pH 7.5, KH 80, no ammonia and water is crystal clear with bi-weekly 10-15% changes. 3,500gal with 12 koi average 18" in length. Last koi introduced to pond was 4 months ago, no signs of any stress in any fish.

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      Thank you and Happy New Year!

    2. #2
      graybird's Avatar
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      Looks like carp pox to me. Waxy pink flattened bumps, look like someone spilled candle wax. What's your water temp? Carp pox appears in cold water and disappears when the water warms up. All my fish with pox are showing their lumps right now -- nothing to be done about it, it's benign. Are there any lumps in the fins?

      The only thing that gives me pause is that the top view photo makes it look as if they are peeling a bit. If they look fuzzy, that's a different matter.
      Mary

    3. #3
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      Quote Originally Posted by graybird View Post
      Looks like carp pox to me. Waxy pink flattened bumps, look like someone spilled candle wax. What's your water temp? Carp pox appears in cold water and disappears when the water warms up. All my fish with pox are showing their lumps right now -- nothing to be done about it, it's benign. Are there any lumps in the fins?

      The only thing that gives me pause is that the top view photo makes it look as if they are peeling a bit. If they look fuzzy, that's a different matter.
      Current water temp is 55 degrees. This is the first winter I have owned this fish, does it stick around and only show up in cold water? Will it spread to other fish?

    4. #4
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      Yes it sticks around and only shows up in cold water. It is a virus. I have not been able to find a source indicating definitively that it is or is not contagious -- most say it doesn't spread to other fish, but I don't know how fish get it if it's not contagious in some way. Some fish in my pond have it, most don't.
      Mary

    5. #5
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      Quote Originally Posted by graybird View Post
      Yes it sticks around and only shows up in cold water. It is a virus. I have not been able to find a source indicating definitively that it is or is not contagious -- most say it doesn't spread to other fish, but I don't know how fish get it if it's not contagious in some way. Some fish in my pond have it, most don't.
      I have also dealt with pox. i do feel it is somewhat contagious whether from physical contact is unsure. regardless it has never been a health issue for me and is just cosmetic. my friend also has a fish with very bad pox but the koi is fine.

      beautiful yamabuki and great Fukrin. just keep an eye on things if it gets worse
      Last edited by kevin32; 12-31-2017 at 09:01 PM.

    6. #6
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      Quote Originally Posted by kevin32 View Post
      I have also dealt with pox. i do feel it is somewhat contagious whether from physical contact is unsure. regardless it has never been a health issue for me and is just cosmetic. my friend also has a fish with very bad pox but the koi is fine.

      beautiful yamabuki and great Fukrin. just keep an eye on things if it gets worse
      Thank you Kevin,
      When the pox goes away as the water warms back up again, will it leave a mark?

    7. #7
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ubiquitous View Post
      Thank you Kevin,
      When the pox goes away as the water warms back up again, will it leave a mark?
      not that i have seen. I kinda look at it like a lip herpe to us. under stress or cold water this virus seems to show. I would not panic and just let it be.

    8. #8
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ubiquitous View Post
      Just noticed this on one of my Koi this morning. I have not had time to inspect all fish in the pond yet, I will do that tonight or tomorrow at latest.
      Please let me know what you believe this is and the care instructions.
      Outdoor pond, San Diego CA. NO3 0, NO2 0, pH 7.5, KH 80, no ammonia and water is crystal clear with bi-weekly 10-15% changes. 3,500gal with 12 koi average 18" in length. Last koi introduced to pond was 4 months ago, no signs of any stress in any fish.

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      I do not believe it is carp pox. If you sedate the Koi and can scrape it off then it is not pox. I would sedate the Koi, scrape them off and then rub table salt onto the affected areas. Let it sit for a few minutes and then put the Koi back in the pond. It will go away with this treatment.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    9. #9
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      Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
      I do not believe it is carp pox. If you sedate the Koi and can scrape it off then it is not pox. I would sedate the Koi, scrape them off and then rub table salt onto the affected areas. Let it sit for a few minutes and then put the Koi back in the pond. It will go away with this treatment.
      you have always said this.honestly i haven't done anything..and my koi are not showing this problem again.

    10. #10
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      at 55 degree water seems best to let it be. immune system is down and not ready to be scraped and treated

    11. #11
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      Quote Originally Posted by kevin32 View Post
      you have always said this.honestly i haven't done anything..and my koi are not showing this problem again.
      Quote Originally Posted by kevin32 View Post
      at 55 degree water seems best to let it be. immune system is down and not ready to be scraped and treated
      Kevin, you know nothing about taking care of Koi so don’t question me. You have been told to not post here or give advice. Just go away!
      You do not know what is best and you will just confuse the OP.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    12. #12
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      Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
      Kevin, you know nothing about taking care of Koi so don’t question me. You have been told to not post here or give advice. Just go away!
      You do not know what is best and you will just confuse the OP.
      fair enough still don't agree with you though..carry on.

    13. #13
      Russell Peters's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by kevin32 View Post
      fair enough still don't agree with you though..carry on.
      It is your years and years of experience dealing with thousands of Koi and the fact that you gained all of your medical knowledge from the best breeders in the world that causes you to disagree with me right?
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    14. #14
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      Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
      It is your years and years of experience dealing with thousands of Koi and the fact that you gained all of your medical knowledge from the best breeders in the world that causes you to disagree with me right?
      no just don't agree with on this. I don't really care how many years have been had.

    15. #15
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      Quote Originally Posted by kevin32 View Post
      no just don't agree with on this. I don't really care how many years have been had.
      This is not the way it is done. If you don’t have a knowledgeable reason to disagree then this is further reason why you should not post in the ER section. Anything you prescribe to someone should come with some knowledge other than, ‘it works for me to leave it alone’.

      This is the ER section, not your playground, and you should have years of experience before you say anything.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    16. #16
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      I probably have more fish in my ponds than most here. Most of my koi have never had carp pox. The few rare ones that did, it never seemed to spread to any of my other fish and eventually disappeared. Sometimes it took several winters to do this. So at least in my ponds it did not seem to be very contagious.

      One thing that I noticed was several that I have had, that had it were orange and black. Not Hi Utsuri, but domestic koi orange with black spots. Another was solid orange, possibly from the same spawn. It made me wonder if orange and black koi are more susceptible or if there is a genetic issue that causes some to be more likely to get it.
      Last edited by koi4u2c; 01-01-2018 at 12:21 AM.
      Nancy



    17. #17
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      Quote Originally Posted by koi4u2c View Post

      One thing that I noticed was several that I have had, that had it were orange and black. Not Hi Utsuri, but domestic koi orange with black spots. Another was solid orange, possibly from the same spawn. It made me wonder if orange and black koi are more susceptible or if there is a genetic issue that causes some to be more likely to get it.
      Interesting. When I had ich and fluke problems earlier this year I had several orange koi that were born in the pond of domestic parents die. I only had a couple of other colored or Japanese koi die. Most of the others hardly showed symptoms. I thought it was very odd. Maybe there is something to it.



    18. #18
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      Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
      I do not believe it is carp pox. If you sedate the Koi and can scrape it off then it is not pox. I would sedate the Koi, scrape them off and then rub table salt onto the affected areas. Let it sit for a few minutes and then put the Koi back in the pond. It will go away with this treatment.
      Hey Russell,
      Thank you for the info and help. I will do this in the morning. Do you have a preferred way to sedate fish? Also - what do you believe this is? Is it something I should treat my entire pond for? Also - should I use salt with or without iodine?

      Thank you again
      Last edited by Ubiquitous; 01-01-2018 at 03:46 AM.

    19. #19
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      Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
      Kevin, you know nothing about taking care of Koi so don’t question me. You have been told to not post here or give advice. Just go away!
      You do not know what is best and you will just confuse the OP.
      Kevin

      A pm sent on behalf of the Health Care Committee a little over a year ago still holds. It has never been rescinded. I remind you of that here. If you would like, I'd be happy to resend it to you, unless you prefer I post it here!?!
      Mike

      check out our website at: http://www.pond-life.net




      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

    20. #20
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ubiquitous View Post
      Hey Russell,
      Thank you for the info and help. I will do this in the morning. Do you have a preferred way to sedate fish? Also - what do you believe this is? Is it something I should treat my entire pond for? Also - should I use salt with or without iodine?

      Thank you again
      In Japan, when I would see this, I would ask and was always told 'parasite'. For years I never thought to ask what parasite and some breeders use PP to treat, some use salt. I did eventually ask and was told Ich. Here is something I have found.



      "Ich-related bumps can often be scraped away with a fingernail (though this is NOT recommended), whereas true carp pox growths cannot be scraped off."


      This is why I always ask people to see if the can scrape it off. I actually do use my fingernail but you can use an ATM card or something similar. I always do it away from the pond and make sure what I scrape off does not get back in the pond. I use MS-222 as an anesthetic but you can use clove oil which is easier to find.

      Karl has a great sticky on many health related issues and this is the link http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...ive-Discussion

      Part Seventeen/Sedating a fish for treatment:

      Clove oil at a rate of 12 to 16 drops per gallon will calm a fish in a matter of minutes. Larger koi generally need more but each koi is different in the reaction to a sedative. Add the clove oil to a small container of water which can be shaken thoroughly. Then add it to the sedating bowl. DO NOT LEAVE THE FISH UNATTENDED DURING THIS TIME. Use only enough water to cover the fish. Aerate. When the fish lays over on your hand without flopping and while still having gill movement it is ready for treatment. Practice this a couple of times keeping a supply of fresh but aged water close by. If for any reason you feel the fish has become sedated too deeply, simply move it to fresh aerated water and assist the fish in using the gills and hold near aeration. Assist the gills by moving the fish back and forth forcing water to pass over the gills. Use your middle finger in the mouth with one hand and hold the tailstop gently with the other.

      MS-222: Tricaine Methanesulfonate. This can be fairly tricky at first so practice is important. Using a gram scale measure out two grams of MS-222 and two grams of baking soda. MS-222 MUST be buffered. Without the buffer, the Ph of the water to be used will drop as far as 3.3! That is ACID. In a matter of a few minutes the gills will be compromised and after several more minutes the fish skin and gills may be permanently damaged.

      Add the MS-222 and baking soda to five gallons of aged pond or q-tank water. Mix thoroughly and you are ready. DO NOT LEAVE THE FISH UNATTENDED DURING THIS TIME. As the fish becomes sedated it will lay over and become quiet and easy to handle. If at any time you think it is too far sedated revive it at once by holding it in a tub of fresh untreated water and move it back and forth assisting it in using the gills. Once sedated, a fish can be tabled for 5-10 minutes without worry. The first time is usually far more stressful on the owner than the fish.

      Here is some more of what I have found about these bumps.

      "Carp pox was probably the earliest recognized viral disease of fish. It was discovered about 400 years ago. Carp pox is actually a herpes virus: herpes virus cyprini. Macroscopically, it produces whitish, opalescent, very hard bumps on the external surface of the fish — signs very similar to those produced by about two dozen other common fish diseases. Thus, only a virological analysis can determine the presence of carp pox.

      While it is possible that your fish do harbor this virus, I can almost guarantee that your fish do not have “carp pox.” It’s just not that common among ornamental carp. In fact, I have never seen a properly diagnosed case of carp pox on any koi and have only heard of a handful of authenticated cases.

      Unfortunately, many well-meaning hobbyist “koi doctors” (and hobbyist books) have also been misled by the appearance of large, opalescent bumps into the misdiagnosis of a much more common problem: coldwater “ich” parasite infestations. This parasitic disease is very commonly seen in the eastern and northern parts of the U.S. and it can be a serious threat to the fish, especially to young koi.

      Coldwater ich disease (an infestation of the common Ichthyophthirius multifilis parasite) usually occurs as water temperatures warm to the range of 10 to 15 degrees Celsius (50 to 60 degrees Fahrenheit). As a result, coldwater ich is most often seen in early spring. However, careful examination will reveal its presence on fish in colder mid-winter waters as well. It also appears when water conditions are poor.

      The signs of an infestation are large, wax-like bumps on the fish’s scales, fins and around the mouth — noticeably different in size and shape from the far better-known “salt” spots caused by ich in warm water conditions."


      BTW, if you have concerns about doing this in your water temps you could put salt right on top of one of the bumps instead of scraping it off. I just make a paste out of regular table salt and rub it in. It may not be as affective though.
      Last edited by Russell Peters; 01-01-2018 at 01:49 PM.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

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