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    Thread: Planning a Pond Rebuild at Windsong Acres

    1. #41
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      Quote Originally Posted by kevin32 View Post
      that would be smart. get the upper dialed in first. we all know it takes longer than expected and don t want an angry wife or brides lol
      Right! Plus, pretty much all of the work done on the Upper pond will be behind the scenes, but the koi pond renovation is right out in the middle of everything.
      My Current 13,000 gallon Pond Build: http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...ot-in-Illinois

      More info about our renovated barns and ponds: www.WindsongAcres.org


    2. #42
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      For the upcoming pond renovation, should I run the 4" BD lines THROUGH the concrete footing that supports the pond wall, or BELOW the footing? What about gravity fed return lines (when the closest distance from pit to opposite side of the pond is under the bottom of the pond)?

      Is there a danger of pipe that penetrates a concrete wall getting broken by the sheer forces of ground settling or heaving around the pipe, but the pipe not being able to move because it is embedded in the concrete?

      I am planning to create the forms for the wall with styrofoam Fox Blocks (a DIY and well-insulated alternative). I have considered just using gravel or even flat concrete blocks for the base of the wall, but talking to the local contractor who will pour the concrete in the styrofoam block walls, he is urging me to pour a concrete footing first, then stack the blocks on the footing for a second pour. (I will be using 45 mil Firestone Pondliner to line the pond).

      Thanks in advance for your thoughts...
      My Current 13,000 gallon Pond Build: http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...ot-in-Illinois

      More info about our renovated barns and ponds: www.WindsongAcres.org


    3. #43
      CALHOUN is offline Senior Member
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      For my rebuild I ran my BD’s 4” lines in the concrete floor which was my footer also for the walls. Mine run level from the BD all the way to the filter pit then make one 90 up and one 90 to the RDF. I used small 3/8 to 1/2 lime stone that is washed for my back fill. This stuff is 99% compacted as soon as it hits the ground. Works great for bedding pipe. Hope his helps.

    4. #44
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      For DIY pond builds you will find many examples of pipe placed on loose backfill and then covered up. This is not a commercially accepted practice. Pipe should be placed on compacted sand or gravel, stabilized and then back filled. For any pipe going through a concrete wall if it is above the frost line there is the potential of surounding ground moving at a different rate during freeze cycles and damage.

    5. #45
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      Quote Originally Posted by Windsong Acres View Post
      [B]I am planning to create the forms for the wall with styrofoam Fox Blocks (a DIY and well-insulated alternative). I have considered just using gravel or even flat concrete blocks for the base of the wall, but talking to the local contractor who will pour the concrete in the styrofoam block walls, he is urging me to pour a concrete footing first, then stack the blocks on the footing for a second pour. (I will be using 45 mil Firestone Pondliner to line the pond).

      Thanks in advance for your thoughts...
      How stable is the ground at the depth of the walls? How high and long is the longest straight section of wall? How thick will the walls be?

      Several examples of this pond method without footers.
      Last edited by BWG; 01-14-2018 at 10:29 PM.

    6. #46
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      I have always gone under the footing.

    7. #47
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      Quote Originally Posted by BWG View Post
      How stable is the ground at the depth of the walls? How high and long is the longest straight section of wall? How thick will the walls be?

      Several examples of this pond method without footers.
      I know we have clay down about 2-3 feet deep, which is under good rich topsoil. Not sure how to describe how firm it is, but the two pond walls I made 7 years ago, by dry stacking the concrete blocks (no footings) for these two ponds have not settled as far as I can tell at this time.

      I think the walls will be either 6 inches or 8 inches thick, not counting the Styrofoam on each side.

      The longest wall will be about 24 feet, including the curves, and the wall will be approximately 5 1/2 feet deep.
      Last edited by Windsong Acres; 01-15-2018 at 04:48 PM.
      My Current 13,000 gallon Pond Build: http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...ot-in-Illinois

      More info about our renovated barns and ponds: www.WindsongAcres.org


    8. #48
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      Quote Originally Posted by birdman View Post
      I have always gone under the footing.
      Thanks. I will plan to do that too. How much distance do you keep between them to avoid possible contact/crushing of the pipe?
      My Current 13,000 gallon Pond Build: http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...ot-in-Illinois

      More info about our renovated barns and ponds: www.WindsongAcres.org


    9. #49
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      Quote Originally Posted by CALHOUN View Post
      For my rebuild I ran my BD’s 4” lines in the concrete floor which was my footer also for the walls. Mine run level from the BD all the way to the filter pit then make one 90 up and one 90 to the RDF. I used small 3/8 to 1/2 lime stone that is washed for my back fill. This stuff is 99% compacted as soon as it hits the ground. Works great for bedding pipe. Hope his helps.
      Very helpful...thanks very much, Calhoun! My revised plans to follow in one of the next posts.
      My Current 13,000 gallon Pond Build: http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...ot-in-Illinois

      More info about our renovated barns and ponds: www.WindsongAcres.org


    10. #50
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      Quote Originally Posted by CALHOUN View Post
      For my rebuild I ran my BD’s 4” lines in the concrete floor which was my footer also for the walls. Mine run level from the BD all the way to the filter pit then make one 90 up and one 90 to the RDF. I used small 3/8 to 1/2 lime stone that is washed for my back fill. This stuff is 99% compacted as soon as it hits the ground. Works great for bedding pipe. Hope his helps.
      This is also very helpful… I had not seen this reply before. I hope you will find the next drawings of interest… I will definitely keep your advice in mind for bedding the pipes down.
      My Current 13,000 gallon Pond Build: http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...ot-in-Illinois

      More info about our renovated barns and ponds: www.WindsongAcres.org


    11. #51
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      One of these drawings shows the relative elevation of the BD line...the other drawing shows how the 3” return lines would go from the pit to the pond. Option A shows the elevation of the two (gravity flow) return lines that go to the near side of the pond. Option B shows the route for return lines that will enter the opposite side of the pond.
      Attached Images Attached Images   
      My Current 13,000 gallon Pond Build: http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...ot-in-Illinois

      More info about our renovated barns and ponds: www.WindsongAcres.org


    12. #52
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      Quote Originally Posted by Windsong Acres View Post
      Thanks. I will plan to do that too. How much distance do you keep between them to avoid possible contact/crushing of the pipe?
      None, I have just poured over the pipes.

    13. #53
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      Quote Originally Posted by birdman View Post
      None, I have just poured over the pipes.
      And of course, since you are pouring the footing, the pipes are below the frost line which eliminates any danger of frost heaving the soil around the pipes and breaking the pipes where they enter the concrete.
      My Current 13,000 gallon Pond Build: http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...ot-in-Illinois

      More info about our renovated barns and ponds: www.WindsongAcres.org


    14. #54
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      I would simply level your bd and whatever that height is take it directly to your filter pit at that height, then make one 90 up and one 90 into the pit. From what I’ve have read and heard this will give you the least amount of debris building up in the BD line. I would also rather pour the pipe into the footer then disturb the ground under the footer. I was nervous about pouring concrete over my BD’s put when you think about it you never should have to touch that plumbing if it’s installed correctly. Also for the return couldn’t you just make your hole wider for your BD line and run right next to it to get to the other side of the pond? I would think this would be the easiest way. I went with three trp’s that are 2” and pump feed because of having two BD’s. I would highly recommended any ground and pipe you don’t want to move back fill with the washed limestone. I built my pool in 2012 and it’s has twice the amount of pvc as my pond. I did it the same way and it’s been through two brutal winters, never had a plumbing problem. I also set my travertine pavers on the same stuff and the pool patio looks like the day I installed it.

    15. #55
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      Do you prefer option A, or option B, as far as the placement of the TPR‘s?

      I will also have a pump fed waterfall bypass, so in option A I was thinking of placing it at the opposite end of the waterfall and letting it help move the water at that end. And option B, since I would be trying to set up two opposite circulations of water, I would use the pump fed return to give the water a push on the opposite side of the pond as the skimmer, so the skimmer is pulling in one side and the pump is pushing on the other right down the middle between the two circular patterns.

      I am currently leaning toward option A, but would appreciate your thoughts.
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      My Current 13,000 gallon Pond Build: http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...ot-in-Illinois

      More info about our renovated barns and ponds: www.WindsongAcres.org


    16. #56
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      What is your plan with the waterfall bypass? I assume this is for winter? Do you plan running everything but the waterfall in winter? Would the waterfall be on the left side in option b? I personally like option b. I think with just one skimmer it would work better in that area. Look forward to seeing all come together.

    17. #57
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      Quote Originally Posted by CALHOUN View Post
      For my rebuild I ran my BD’s 4” lines in the concrete floor which was my footer also for the walls. Mine run level from the BD all the way to the filter pit then make one 90 up and one 90 to the RDF. I used small 3/8 to 1/2 lime stone that is washed for my back fill. This stuff is 99% compacted as soon as it hits the ground. Works great for bedding pipe. Hope his helps.
      When you say "washed" limestone, do you buy it that way, or do you wash it?
      My Current 13,000 gallon Pond Build: http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...ot-in-Illinois

      More info about our renovated barns and ponds: www.WindsongAcres.org


    18. #58
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      Quote Originally Posted by CALHOUN View Post
      What is your plan with the waterfall bypass? I assume this is for winter? Do you plan running everything but the waterfall in winter? Would the waterfall be on the left side in option b? I personally like option b. I think with just one skimmer it would work better in that area. Look forward to seeing all come together.
      Yes, the waterfall bypass is primarily in case I want to keep that circuit going in winter, but don't want to run the waterfall. It is also to give me the opportunity to adjust the flow of water over the waterfall with valves during the summer; I am planning to use an ES 8500 pump, pulling water directly out of a Savio skimmer, then go through a UV, then there will be a "wye" with ball valves on each branch...one to the waterfall, and one to the bypass. So I could temporarily shoot all the water out of the bypass and "sweep" (or stir up) the bottom, or put a smaller pump on the circuit for winter, or ideally, be able to shut that circuit down over the winter (won't need waterfall, or UV, or skimmer if I cover the pond as I have in the past).

      Just thinking...I guess I could just plan to eliminate the bypass line (less plumbing and one less pond penetration), and use the valve to pinch back the flow of the pump to regulate flow out of the waterfall...and since I hope not to use the circuit in the winter at all, there would not be a need for an alternate return to the waterfall during the winter. If I have to pinch back the pump much, it would decrease water through the UV--that's the only drawback to simplifying that circuit that I can think of now, and I could make sure that I build the waterfall so that it will handle about 8000 gph. The other issues then might be looks (it's hard to know how 8000 gph will look over a given rock arrangement until it is all done), and noise (we have weddings here, and some might not want the waterfall to be too loud--others would love the sound, but that's a temporary fix with a turn of the valve). So I'm still thinking it over! :-)
      My Current 13,000 gallon Pond Build: http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...ot-in-Illinois

      More info about our renovated barns and ponds: www.WindsongAcres.org


    19. #59
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      Quote Originally Posted by Windsong Acres View Post
      Do you prefer option A, or option B, as far as the placement of the TPR‘s?

      I will also have a pump fed waterfall bypass, so in option A I was thinking of placing it at the opposite end of the waterfall and letting it help move the water at that end. And option B, since I would be trying to set up two opposite circulations of water, I would use the pump fed return to give the water a push on the opposite side of the pond as the skimmer, so the skimmer is pulling in one side and the pump is pushing on the other right down the middle between the two circular patterns.

      I am currently leaning toward option A, but would appreciate your thoughts.
      Does anyone have any other preferences between these two plans for TPR placement? The pond will be about 25' x 12' x 5.5' deep.
      My Current 13,000 gallon Pond Build: http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...ot-in-Illinois

      More info about our renovated barns and ponds: www.WindsongAcres.org


    20. #60
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      Quote Originally Posted by Windsong Acres View Post
      Does anyone have any other preferences between these two plans for TPR placement? The pond will be about 25' x 12' x 5.5' deep.
      How deep is the bypass? If low as a tpr I don't know if I'd point it directly at a BD like option B but if more of a mid water return II think it'd be
      fine. I personally like the design of B better but I would modify the tpr placement a tad and put them directly between the BD's.

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      And you could make a bypass for the UV to flow as little or as much of the flow from the pump through it and not worry
      about what amount it takes for the waterfall.

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