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    Thread: Mixed messages

    1. #1
      Essex Koi is offline Senior Member
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      Mixed messages

      So Iíve been keeping Koi for a grand total of 8 months now. Iíve spent hundreds of hours researching online, read a few books and asked questions on forums and in person / telephone from a few folk. Itís been quite revealing as a hobby and has highlighted the difference in opinions depending on who you ask, for example the below:

      Optimum temperature for health and growth:

      Iíve been told 68f / 70f / 72f / 75f / 77f

      Water changes:

      Small changes daily are best as large changes stress the fish

      Large changes once a week are best, as small changes donít remove enough contaminants and youíre only removing a percentage of a percentage if you do small changes

      Filtration with K1:

      Will take a year to mature

      Will take 3 months, if itís not reducing ammonia, etc, you donít have enough filtration

      Itís the best

      Itís the worst

      Heating:

      Will keep Koi healthy and keep filtration going - min 68f

      Best keep to 60f

      Best keep at 50f

      Donít heat at all, itís not good for the fish

      Heat until January, then bring down temp to ambient until Spring

      It will make the Koi ill not having a winter

      It will keep the Koi growing all winter and result in better growth / health

      Itís crazy expensive and unnecessary

      Itís not natural, carp in the wild survive

      Koi are not natural carp, theyíve been highly bred and not as strong as wild carp and need heating

      They donít heat in Japan and it gets very cold there

      They do heat in Japan, bringing them indoors

      Heating is only a very recent thing and wasnít done for centuries

      Food:

      Feed high protein food (45%) to younger fish, they need it

      Never feed high protein food, itís bad for them

      Expensive food such as Saki Hikari is a con

      Saki Hikari is the best

      Automatic feeders are the best option feeding once an hour at summer temps

      Only feed a max of 4 times a day

      Best feed at night as they eat better then

      Never feed at night

      Keep feeding at low temps until they naturally stop eating

      Never feed at low temps, even if they act hungry, it will kill them

      Automatic feeders breakdown too easy, never buy them

      Iíve figured itís different for different ponds to an extent, but itís still confusing for a novice. Itís been quite a learning curve and Iíve done ok I think, seeing as my Koi have all grown substantially and I havenít lost any fish along the way.

      Without belittling anyone or their views, surely thereís a way to make the process a bit easier for newcomers to Koi keeping?
      Main pond 4000 US Gallon, 22 Koi. Oase Proficlear Premium + Bio Module, Bitron 120 w UVC, Bakki Shower, Dura 7+ ashp. Grow on tank 600 Gallons with Eazypod Automatic and 70 litre K1 biochamber.

    2. #2
      jimfish98's Avatar
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      The answer to it all is do what works for you....no two ponds are the same and never expect too many people to agree on the same thing, especially when results are subjective. As for what you noted....

      Food is based on budget and what results you get out of it. If it works and is in your budget, its good enough.

      Temp- Don't let it freeze over, don't let it boil, and find your own sweet spot in that range where your fish grow.

      Water changes- Do it in a manner that is convenient to you. As long as you are changing water you are going in the right direction.

      Maturing media- It is mature when you it takes care of ammonia. Varies by what ever the heck you use. Sponges, ribbon, ceramic, bio ball, etc...



      Diamond Lifetime Member #95!
      Just because its not a Great Koi doesn't mean its not a Great Koi...Me circa 2013

    3. #3
      BroHay is offline Senior Member
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      Trial by fire seems to be the best.

      I am staggered by the amount of money thrown around for an expansion, only to not do, and then sell...... I need to get some more cash available to get in on these deals.

      Adam

    4. #4
      kimini is online now Senior Member
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      It's called human nature and there is no One Answer, though by how loudly some here talk, it's clear they think so. You're not going to find black-and-white answers, just generalities. The main reason is that it's a system with dozens of variables, often where some or many are left out of arguments about why something does or doesn't work. Don't kill yourself, read, as you're doing, make your decisions, and move on. Life's too short.

      BTW, you're forgetting Shower Filters:
      They're the best - but we don't know why
      They off-gas ammonia
      They do not off-gas ammonia
      The media will clog
      The media will not clog
      Last edited by kimini; 12-20-2017 at 11:09 AM.

    5. #5
      Essex Koi is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by jimfish98 View Post
      The answer to it all is do what works for you...
      Difficult when you’re just starting, which is my point...
      Main pond 4000 US Gallon, 22 Koi. Oase Proficlear Premium + Bio Module, Bitron 120 w UVC, Bakki Shower, Dura 7+ ashp. Grow on tank 600 Gallons with Eazypod Automatic and 70 litre K1 biochamber.

    6. #6
      rcmike is offline Supporting Member
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      Welcome to the world of koi. I recently got scolded on Facebook because I'm feeding my fish at 55 degrees. I was told the fish will die and not show any symptoms until they are dead. Some people think the way they do it is they only way and every other way is wrong.



    7. #7
      Essex Koi is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by kimini View Post

      BTW, you're forgetting Shower Filters:
      They're the best - just don't ask why
      They off-gas ammonia
      They do not off-gas ammonia
      The media will clog
      The media will not clog
      I read up in Bakki Showers / Bakki Rivers, but havenít looked to implement. Also Anoxic Filtration, which seems to garner strong opinions for and against.

      I looked at this as it would fit nicely along one ledge on my pond and with the added space for plants, would look nice too, but was told it was silly and wouldnít work...

      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ehKR2RlomWI
      Last edited by Essex Koi; 12-19-2017 at 08:06 PM.
      Main pond 4000 US Gallon, 22 Koi. Oase Proficlear Premium + Bio Module, Bitron 120 w UVC, Bakki Shower, Dura 7+ ashp. Grow on tank 600 Gallons with Eazypod Automatic and 70 litre K1 biochamber.

    8. #8
      Essex Koi is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by rcmike View Post
      Welcome to the world of koi. I recently got scolded on Facebook because I'm feeding my fish at 55 degrees. I was told the fish will die and not show any symptoms until they are dead. Some people think the way they do it is they only way and every other way is wrong.
      I met a guy recently who told me that my temp of 23c / 73.4f was way too high and he’d been keeping Koi at 20c / 68f for 20 years. He implied that it was unhealthy for the Koi.
      Main pond 4000 US Gallon, 22 Koi. Oase Proficlear Premium + Bio Module, Bitron 120 w UVC, Bakki Shower, Dura 7+ ashp. Grow on tank 600 Gallons with Eazypod Automatic and 70 litre K1 biochamber.

    9. #9
      kdh's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Essex Koi View Post
      So I’ve been keeping Koi for a grand total of 8 months now. I’ve spent hundreds of hours researching online, read a few books and asked questions on forums and in person / telephone from a few folk. It’s been quite revealing as a hobby and has highlighted the difference in opinions depending on who you ask, for example the below:

      Optimum temperature for health and growth:

      I’ve been told 68f / 70f / 72f / 75f / 77f

      Water changes:

      Small changes daily are best as large changes stress the fish

      Large changes once a week are best, as small changes don’t remove enough contaminants and you’re only removing a percentage of a percentage if you do small changes

      Filtration with K1:

      Will take a year to mature

      Will take 3 months, if it’s not reducing ammonia, etc, you don’t have enough filtration

      It’s the best

      It’s the worst

      Heating:

      Will keep Koi healthy and keep filtration going - min 68f

      Best keep to 60f

      Best keep at 50f

      Don’t heat at all, it’s not good for the fish

      Heat until January, then bring down temp to ambient until Spring

      It will make the Koi ill not having a winter

      It will keep the Koi growing all winter and result in better growth / health

      It’s crazy expensive and unnecessary

      It’s not natural, carp in the wild survive

      Koi are not natural carp, they’ve been highly bred and not as strong as wild carp and need heating

      They don’t heat in Japan and it gets very cold there

      They do heat in Japan, bringing them indoors

      Heating is only a very recent thing and wasn’t done for centuries

      Food:

      Feed high protein food (45%) to younger fish, they need it

      Never feed high protein food, it’s bad for them

      Expensive food such as Saki Hikari is a con

      Saki Hikari is the best

      Automatic feeders are the best option feeding once an hour at summer temps

      Only feed a max of 4 times a day

      Best feed at night as they eat better then

      Never feed at night

      Keep feeding at low temps until they naturally stop eating

      Never feed at low temps, even if they act hungry, it will kill them

      Automatic feeders breakdown too easy, never buy them

      I’ve figured it’s different for different ponds to an extent, but it’s still confusing for a novice. It’s been quite a learning curve and I’ve done ok I think, seeing as my Koi have all grown substantially and I haven’t lost any fish along the way.

      Without belittling anyone or their views, surely there’s a way to make the process a bit easier for newcomers to Koi keeping?
      Nice list for a beginner of 8 months.

      Please keep the list going and post upgraded list in 8 years.

      It well be the longest posting in Koiphen history, guaranteed. lol

    10. #10
      stephen's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Essex Koi View Post
      So Iíve been keeping Koi for a grand total of 8 months now. Iíve spent hundreds of hours researching online, read a few books and asked questions on forums and in person / telephone from a few folk. Itís been quite revealing as a hobby and has highlighted the difference in opinions depending on who you ask, for example the below:

      Optimum temperature for health and growth:

      Iíve been told 68f / 70f / 72f / 75f / 77f

      Water changes:

      Small changes daily are best as large changes stress the fish

      Large changes once a week are best, as small changes donít remove enough contaminants and youíre only removing a percentage of a percentage if you do small changes

      Filtration with K1:

      Will take a year to mature

      Will take 3 months, if itís not reducing ammonia, etc, you donít have enough filtration

      Itís the best

      Itís the worst

      Heating:

      Will keep Koi healthy and keep filtration going - min 68f

      Best keep to 60f

      Best keep at 50f

      Donít heat at all, itís not good for the fish

      Heat until January, then bring down temp to ambient until Spring

      It will make the Koi ill not having a winter

      It will keep the Koi growing all winter and result in better growth / health

      Itís crazy expensive and unnecessary

      Itís not natural, carp in the wild survive

      Koi are not natural carp, theyíve been highly bred and not as strong as wild carp and need heating

      They donít heat in Japan and it gets very cold there

      They do heat in Japan, bringing them indoors

      Heating is only a very recent thing and wasnít done for centuries

      Food:

      Feed high protein food (45%) to younger fish, they need it

      Never feed high protein food, itís bad for them

      Expensive food such as Saki Hikari is a con

      Saki Hikari is the best

      Automatic feeders are the best option feeding once an hour at summer temps

      Only feed a max of 4 times a day

      Best feed at night as they eat better then

      Never feed at night

      Keep feeding at low temps until they naturally stop eating

      Never feed at low temps, even if they act hungry, it will kill them

      Automatic feeders breakdown too easy, never buy them

      Iíve figured itís different for different ponds to an extent, but itís still confusing for a novice. Itís been quite a learning curve and Iíve done ok I think, seeing as my Koi have all grown substantially and I havenít lost any fish along the way.

      Without belittling anyone or their views, surely thereís a way to make the process a bit easier for newcomers to Koi keeping?
      Welcome Aboard! Many make it too complicated. Here are my thoughts about your 4000 gallon pond:

      Temperature - For health & growth - 60-80 f, give or take. For survival - 35-90 f (don't forget aeration)

      Water Changes - Slow and steady, the more the better

      Filtration - Others will answer

      Heating - Don't worry about it at this time. Later on in the hobby you decide if for you.

      Feeding - Most food is adequate, feed as often that they are hungry, forget about automatic feeders at this time.

      Keep stocking levels low!! Less is better.

      Good Luck!

    11. #11
      mjfromga's Avatar
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      Eh I was told by several long time keepers that my little fancy goldfish would all die during the winter. That they were too weak to even be in temps in the 50s without dying. Temps have fallen into the 30s and so far not even one fish has died. I even have these tiny ones that have not died. You have to be willing to test things yourself. You'll likely find that not all rumors are true and that different things work for different people.
      Attached Images Attached Images   

    12. #12
      Essex Koi is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by stephen View Post
      Welcome Aboard! Many make it too complicated. Here are my thoughts about your 4000 gallon pond:

      Temperature - For health & growth - 60-80 f, give or take. For survival - 35-90 f (don't forget aeration)

      Water Changes - Slow and steady, the more the better

      Filtration - Others will answer

      Heating - Don't worry about it at this time. Later on in the hobby you decide if for you.

      Feeding - Most food is adequate, feed as often that they are hungry, forget about automatic feeders at this time.

      Keep stocking levels low!! Less is better.

      Good Luck!
      Thanks, I have heating, an automatic feeder, I’m steady at 73f since September, when I switched the heating on. I have plenty of aeration going too, plus the pond is covered for the winter.
      Main pond 4000 US Gallon, 22 Koi. Oase Proficlear Premium + Bio Module, Bitron 120 w UVC, Bakki Shower, Dura 7+ ashp. Grow on tank 600 Gallons with Eazypod Automatic and 70 litre K1 biochamber.

    13. #13
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      Quote Originally Posted by Essex Koi View Post
      I met a guy recently who told me that my temp of 23c / 73.4f was way too high and he’d been keeping Koi at 20c / 68f for 20 years. He implied that it was unhealthy for the Koi.
      Must be nice to have a system that can keep koi at 68. 24/7/365/20years.

    14. #14
      kevin32's Avatar
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      there are so many variables. as your pond is still new then feeding at 55 maybe different then someone that has a more mature and established pond. my pond is well below 50 now and I feed my 44 koi once a day and see no rise in ammonia, nitrites or nitrates so i feel im doing fine. when my pond was new and the water got cold I often saw my nitrites and nitrates.

      heating keeps the beneficial bacteria going and is not a bad idea on a newer pond. not saying you should feed larger koi the same amount 365 days a year. maybe tosai the first year.

      i agree though in 8 months you have taken in alot of info and i think this thread may help others as well.

      do I want to go into showers off-gasssing ammonia all i can say is a have a huge fish load to shower and never showed any ammonia or nitrites on my pond and my nitrates stay at 10ppm. left out i have a rdf also lol.

      fish can "survive" in colder water temps. but there is also a line between thriving or surviving. I'm not heating my pond and not pushing heating it. i knew you were heating your pond though. i feel k1 seems to mature when it starts to sink more and can mature pretty fast as it builds up biofilm pretty well
      Last edited by kevin32; 12-19-2017 at 09:04 PM.

    15. #15
      Essex Koi is offline Senior Member
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      Even when I expanded the pond in August, I had conflicting info. I decided to build a timber frame around the existing pond. It took me 5 days plus a couple of weekends beforehand of prep.

      I was told that the wood would never hold together without rebar - it did and is pretty solid using timber screws - based on advice from a timber specialist, who is a friend, he guaranteed that it would hold with no issues. Each piece of timber is about 80lbs in weight.

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      Main pond 4000 US Gallon, 22 Koi. Oase Proficlear Premium + Bio Module, Bitron 120 w UVC, Bakki Shower, Dura 7+ ashp. Grow on tank 600 Gallons with Eazypod Automatic and 70 litre K1 biochamber.

    16. #16
      Essex Koi is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by kevin32 View Post
      there are so many variables. as your pond is still new then feeding at 55 maybe different then someone that has a more mature and established pond. my pond is well below 50 now and I feed my 44 koi once a day and see no rise in ammonia, nitrites or nitrates so i feel im doing fine. when my pond was new and the water got cold I often saw my nitrites and nitrates.

      heating keeps the beneficial bacteria going and is not a bad idea on a newer pond. not saying you should feed larger koi the same amount 365 days a year. maybe tosai the first year.

      i agree though in 8 months you have taken in alot of info and i think this thread may help others as well.

      do I want to go into showers off-gasssing ammonia all i can say is a have a huge fish load to shower and never showed any ammonia or nitrites on my pond and my nitrates stay at 10ppm. left out i have a rdf also lol.

      fish can "survive" in colder water temps. but there is also a line between thriving or surviving. I'm not heating my pond and not pushing heating it. i knew you were heating your pond though. i feel k1 seems to mature when it starts to sink more and can mature pretty fast as it builds up biofilm pretty well
      The reason I heated was because a friend of mine was telling my wife & I how he lost 6 fish over the previous winter in his unheated pond, but it was in particular the gruesome way that some of them died...he said that three of them wore away the skin on the bottom of their bellies as they rock back & forth on the bottom of the pond and basically when he lifted them out, their insides were falling out. That was enough to convince us to either heat or not to keep Koi at all.
      Main pond 4000 US Gallon, 22 Koi. Oase Proficlear Premium + Bio Module, Bitron 120 w UVC, Bakki Shower, Dura 7+ ashp. Grow on tank 600 Gallons with Eazypod Automatic and 70 litre K1 biochamber.

    17. #17
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      How about a couple of good pic of the house. Looks nice from what I can see.

    18. #18
      kevin32's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Essex Koi View Post
      The reason I heated was because a friend of mine was telling my wife & I how he lost 6 fish over the previous winter in his unheated pond, but it was in particular the gruesome way that some of them died...he said that three of them wore away the skin on the bottom of their bellies as they rock back & forth on the bottom of the pond and basically when he lifted them out, their insides were falling out. That was enough to convince us to either heat or not to keep Koi at all.
      belly sores. when fish lay on the bottom for periods of time they can get bacterial infections more easily. i had my share of bacterial infections on the belly of my koi and it is a bad thing to have to deal with.

      other than making the wallet thinner I can't see any downside to heating a pond. as for 73 being to hot, my tosai saw 86 this summer and didn't mind it all. still ate and fish were fine
      Last edited by kevin32; 12-19-2017 at 09:22 PM.

    19. #19
      Essex Koi is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by kdh View Post
      How about a couple of good pic of the house. Looks nice from what I can see.
      Video here:

      Main pond 4000 US Gallon, 22 Koi. Oase Proficlear Premium + Bio Module, Bitron 120 w UVC, Bakki Shower, Dura 7+ ashp. Grow on tank 600 Gallons with Eazypod Automatic and 70 litre K1 biochamber.

    20. #20
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      Quote Originally Posted by Essex Koi View Post
      Video here:

      now we see why you can heat the pond. nice place you have

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