• Amused
  • Angry
  • Annoyed
  • Awesome
  • Bemused
  • Cocky
  • Cool
  • Crazy
  • Crying
  • Depressed
  • Down
  • Drunk
  • Embarrased
  • Enraged
  • Friendly
  • Geeky
  • Godly
  • Happy
  • Hateful
  • Hungry
  • Innocent
  • Meh
  • Piratey
  • Poorly
  • Sad
  • Secret
  • Shy
  • Sneaky
  • Tired
  • Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
    Results 1 to 20 of 22

    Thread: Swim bladder, suspected problem.

    1. #1
      coolwon is offline Senior Member
      is Garfield is my name DIY is my
      game
       
      Feeling:
      Cool
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2016
      Location
      Durban South Africa
      Posts
      636

      Swim bladder, suspected problem.

      Hi All,

      I have a very pretty 8'' or 10" grow on Kujaku which appears to have developed a swim bladder problem.

      It cannot swim upright. It rolls around breathing heavily with the pecks attempting to keep it on an even keel.

      Is there any way of correcting the condition.

      I have heard it is possible to use a syringe to remove the fluid build up in the bladder

      The fish is in very good physical condition.

      I would really like to try and save it if possible.

      Garfield
      Last edited by coolwon; 12-09-2017 at 07:11 AM.
      Find more about Weather in Durban, ZA

    2. #2
      KoiRun's Avatar
      KoiRun is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      Nov 2015
      Location
      Mississauga, Ontario
      Posts
      1,079
      I heard response to treatment to any abnormal buoyancy problem is often very poor and often euthanasia is indicated. But hey if you have some sort of armament go ahead try to treat it after all you can only gain from it in experience. I think a needle aspiration of the swim bladder is diagnostic. Meaning if after aspirating the swim bladder and the fish is able to right itself somewhat then that is your problem. Fish swimming on it's side could be loss of equilibrium (neurologic) which has other causes and this has to be ruled out. If it were my fish I would anaesthetize with clove oil and aspirate the swim bladder. There is some weird calculation somewhere on how much to aspirate but I would not go through all that trouble. For this size koi I would start at around 1-3ml using a 3ml syringe with a 23G 1" or 22G 1.5" needle. Wake it up and see how it swims.
      This is just diagnostic, so even if it works, the abnormal buoyancy problem will return unless the underlying cause is corrected. I would assume the worst 'treatable' cause of the the swim bladder disease which is a bacterial infection and therefore start sourcing antibiotics (baytril, amikacin, oxolinic acid). If I cannot find these antibiotics I would do a salt or PP dip. Of course if there are any water quality issues, this needs to be corrected. This is just what I wound prepare to do if any of my koi develop this problem. How long has it had this problem? Any thing happened that could have stressed this koi? Post water quality numbers.
      Here is a radiograph picture of a common carp that might help in land marking. I think there is a youtube video somewhere that shows the procedure.
      Name:  Common_carp_x-ray.jpg
Views: 183
Size:  47.2 KB
      Last edited by KoiRun; 12-09-2017 at 01:17 PM. Reason: adjusted ml of aspiration

    3. #3
      KoiRun's Avatar
      KoiRun is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      Nov 2015
      Location
      Mississauga, Ontario
      Posts
      1,079
      Found the video:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOMjZHW_gy4

      It if were able to right itself and start eating, I heard feeding it pea might help. One theory is that eaten food might have expanded in the GI tract were it obstructs the the pneumatic duct. The swim bladder empties into the GI tract through this tube. "Theoretically, the pea forces more buoyant food through the gastrointestinal tract, and the pneumatic duct becomes unobstructed." Note these are in goldfish, so speculation is that it might work on koi. Have you changed food?
      https://www.researchgate.net/profile...a-goldfish.pdf
      Last edited by KoiRun; 12-09-2017 at 02:03 PM.

    4. #4
      icu2's Avatar
      icu2 is online now Administrator ~ WWKC Treasurer
      is usually here but if not I'm
      probably off flying
       
      Feeling:
      Piratey
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2007
      Location
      Poulsbo, WA
      Posts
      23,836
      If you can take a short video it might help with diagnosis if you're not sure it's actually
      a swim bladder issue too.
      --Steve
      Find more about Weather in Poulsbo, WA

      "It is far better to be alone, than to be in bad company." --George Washington

    5. #5
      coolwon is offline Senior Member
      is Garfield is my name DIY is my
      game
       
      Feeling:
      Cool
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2016
      Location
      Durban South Africa
      Posts
      636
      Hi Gents,

      Many thanks for your prompt and encouraging replies.

      I have found the YouTube video of the keeper working on an anesthetized fish and the fish vet working on the goldfish.

      I will catch and bowl my fish and have another look at the condition and state of the body and get some idea where the organ is situated and the angle to go in at in the

      morning.

      It' 9.00 pm, so a bit late to attempt this evening.

      I have a couple of syringes but I am not quite sure on the needle gauges in the medicine chest.

      Cheers, and thank you,

      Garfield.
      Find more about Weather in Durban, ZA

    6. #6
      mjfromga's Avatar
      mjfromga is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2017
      Location
      Georgia
      Posts
      260
      Quote Originally Posted by KoiRun View Post
      Found the video:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOMjZHW_gy4

      It if were able to right itself and start eating, I heard feeding it pea might help. One theory is that eaten food might have expanded in the GI tract were it obstructs the the pneumatic duct. The swim bladder empties into the GI tract through this tube. "Theoretically, the pea forces more buoyant food through the gastrointestinal tract, and the pneumatic duct becomes unobstructed." Note these are in goldfish, so speculation is that it might work on koi. Have you changed food?
      https://www.researchgate.net/profile...a-goldfish.pdf
      Rarely works on goldfish. Very rarely almost to the point of being mythical.

    7. #7
      kevin32's Avatar
      kevin32 is online now Senior Member
      is chillin
       
      Feeling:
      Friendly
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2014
      Location
      brentwood ca. up north
      Posts
      5,445
      had this occur on my tosai. didn't make it. not sure what can be done
      Last edited by kevin32; 12-10-2017 at 03:08 AM.

    8. #8
      Cecil is offline Senior Member
      is Koiphen fan
       
      Feeling:
      Awesome
       
      Join Date
      Nov 2011
      Location
      Ligonier, Indiana USA
      Posts
      814
      I know it's a different species but I have a female brook trout the has had issues swimming normally since I planted it as a fingering. It's now 11 months old and 13 to14 inches.

      It swims with it's head up and eventually tires out and lays on the bottom for a while. Then it swims with it's head up again. And over and over again. What's crazy is it feeds apparently O.K. because it's growing well and not emaciated. I've tried to capture it with a net when it's laying on the bottom only to have it swim out. I was going to euthanize it with a MS-222 (Finquel) overdose to put it out of it's misery if I could capture it.
      Last edited by Cecil; 12-16-2017 at 12:37 PM.
      The risk I took was calculated, but man am I bad at math!

    9. #9
      kevin32's Avatar
      kevin32 is online now Senior Member
      is chillin
       
      Feeling:
      Friendly
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2014
      Location
      brentwood ca. up north
      Posts
      5,445
      Quote Originally Posted by Cecil View Post
      I know it's a different species but I have a female brook trout the has had issues swimming normally since I planted it as a fingering. It's now. 11 months old and 13 to14 inches.

      It swims with it's head up and eventually tires out and lays on the bottom for a while. Then it swims with it's head up again. And over and over again. What's crazy is it feeds apparently O.K. because it's growing well and not emaciated. I've tried to capture it with a net when it's laying on the bottom only to have it swim out. I was going to euthanize it with a MS-222 (Finquel) overdose to put it out of it's misery if I could capture it.
      ms-222 is so much better than clove oil. I wish more people would understand this it's better for your fish. clove oil can drive stressed fish over the edge.and they die . ms222 does not mess with breathing and puts the fish under and we do our job and release back into pond and fish is back to normal. clove oil is ok for calming fish. but ms-222 is what we want

    10. #10
      icu2's Avatar
      icu2 is online now Administrator ~ WWKC Treasurer
      is usually here but if not I'm
      probably off flying
       
      Feeling:
      Piratey
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2007
      Location
      Poulsbo, WA
      Posts
      23,836
      Quote Originally Posted by kevin32 View Post
      ms-222 is so much better than clove oil. I wish more people would understand this it's better for your fish. clove oil can drive stressed fish over the edge.and they die . ms222 does not mess with breathing and puts the fish under and we do our job and release back into pond and fish is back to normal. clove oil is ok for calming fish. but ms-222 is what we want
      I'm not sure it matters much if the goal is euthanization.
      --Steve
      Find more about Weather in Poulsbo, WA

      "It is far better to be alone, than to be in bad company." --George Washington

    11. #11
      kevin32's Avatar
      kevin32 is online now Senior Member
      is chillin
       
      Feeling:
      Friendly
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2014
      Location
      brentwood ca. up north
      Posts
      5,445
      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      I'm not sure it matters much if the goal is euthanization.
      right. but still works a little better than clove oil also.
      ms-222 is very quick compared to clove oil but cost more also

    12. #12
      coolwon is offline Senior Member
      is Garfield is my name DIY is my
      game
       
      Feeling:
      Cool
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2016
      Location
      Durban South Africa
      Posts
      636
      How does Phenoxy Ethanol fit into anesthetic or euthanization grand scheme of things?

      Garfield
      Last edited by coolwon; 12-16-2017 at 05:31 AM.
      Find more about Weather in Durban, ZA

    13. #13
      Cecil is offline Senior Member
      is Koiphen fan
       
      Feeling:
      Awesome
       
      Join Date
      Nov 2011
      Location
      Ligonier, Indiana USA
      Posts
      814
      Quote Originally Posted by kevin32 View Post
      right. but still works a little better than clove oil also.
      ms-222 is very quick compared to clove oil but cost more also
      Actually I think the MS-222 is not necessarily more expensive when you consider you don't need to use very much. Clove oil isn't cheap either anymore (at least locally here at drug stores).

      I no longer use the clove oil because it leaves an odor in whatever container I use it in and it's hard to get rid of. And as indicated the MS-222 works better for me than clove oil. I once used my fishing cooler and had a heck of a time getting rid of the odor. I was afraid any fish I caught would reek of it! Finally got rid of it using a bleach solution and sun drying and airing out outside.
      Last edited by Cecil; 12-26-2017 at 03:53 PM.
      The risk I took was calculated, but man am I bad at math!

    14. #14
      kdh's Avatar
      kdh is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2011
      Location
      redding.california
      Posts
      7,463
      Quote Originally Posted by coolwon View Post
      How does Phenoxy Ethanol fit into anesthetic or euthanization grand scheme of things?

      Garfield
      http://aquafind.com/articles/Anaesth...ter-Fishes.php

    15. #15
      kevin32's Avatar
      kevin32 is online now Senior Member
      is chillin
       
      Feeling:
      Friendly
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2014
      Location
      brentwood ca. up north
      Posts
      5,445
      great article. what indent like about clove oil is that it takes awhile to mix in. the fish is still moving around so I add more clove oil but not sure if I should have waited longer. also when treating dropsy the clove oil was very hard to revive the fish as it was already in a weakened state. ms-222 would have been much easier on the fish and me lol

    16. #16
      KoiRun's Avatar
      KoiRun is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      Nov 2015
      Location
      Mississauga, Ontario
      Posts
      1,079
      I've never used ms-222 so I can't comment, but I've had 100% success rate with clove oil and I too also suspect from experience that the sicker they are, the harder it is to wake them up. From an article I've read, the active ingredient in clove oil has an anti-viral, antimicrobial and anti-fungal effect. So I think a dip in it would to be a good thing and perhaps it adds to the treatment of koi when used primarily to sedate koi. Extrapolating a bit, I suspect this could be why I've heard accounts where a scrape and scope of a koi that is expected to have parasites turns out negative. Maybe parasite will die and shed after being exposed to clove oil. All speculation I know, but it's an easy enough experiment to work on in the future. There's another oil water treatment (forgot the name) that is frequently frowned upon here that I suspect works similarly. When I get a sore throat, I mix 2 drops of clove oil with 30mls of water and gargle it - nasty but it works!
      https://www.researchgate.net/publica...if_fish_review
      Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time. ---- Marthe Troly-Curtin



    17. #17
      kevin32's Avatar
      kevin32 is online now Senior Member
      is chillin
       
      Feeling:
      Friendly
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2014
      Location
      brentwood ca. up north
      Posts
      5,445
      Quote Originally Posted by KoiRun View Post
      I've never used ms-222 so I can't comment, but I've had 100% success rate with clove oil and I too also suspect from experience that the sicker they are, the harder it is to wake them up. From an article I've read, the active ingredient in clove oil has an anti-viral, antimicrobial and anti-fungal effect. So I think a dip in it would to be a good thing and perhaps it adds to the treatment of koi when used primarily to sedate koi. Extrapolating a bit, I suspect this could be why I've heard accounts where a scrape and scope of a koi that is expected to have parasites turns out negative. Maybe parasite will die and shed after being exposed to clove oil. All speculation I know, but it's an easy enough experiment to work on in the future. There's another oil water treatment (forgot the name) that is frequently frowned upon here that I suspect works similarly. When I get a sore throat, I mix 2 drops of clove oil with 30mls of water and gargle it - nasty but it works!
      https://www.researchgate.net/publica...if_fish_review
      i don't think clove oil will kill of a parasite that fast..as mentioned clove oil smells terrible and it can be really hard to bring a koi back from it..ive seen the ms222 fish recover instant after being injected so thay was enough for me. clove oil seems to need mess with breathing as well. gasping for air. the ms222 is more how we would be put under for surgery

    18. #18
      RichToyBox's Avatar
      RichToyBox is online now Administrator ~ WWKC BOD ~
      Koi Health Care Committee Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      Awesome
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2005
      Location
      Sandston, VA
      Posts
      12,772
      I have never had a problem with the use of clove oil. Have no experience with MS-222. I found that I could get the clove oil to disperse in the water better by injecting it into the water with a syringe with the needle on, finely asperating the oil into the water, so that the soluble portion is dispersed, unlike adding drops into the tank. I have never had a fish not recover that I wanted to have recover. When I started, I would hold the fish in an upright position in a recovery tub, working it back and forth to try to get the oil out of the system, but later, I just took the fish and lowered it into the pond and it would sink to the bottom and then within less time than it took me to dump the clove oil tub, it was swimming, first like it was drunk, but soon normal. I know that the vets have to use MS-222, but it is harder to source when you are in an emergency situation.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

      Zone 7 A/B
      Keep your words sweet. You never know when you may have to eat them.
      Richard

    19. #19
      kevin32's Avatar
      kevin32 is online now Senior Member
      is chillin
       
      Feeling:
      Friendly
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2014
      Location
      brentwood ca. up north
      Posts
      5,445
      Quote Originally Posted by RichToyBox View Post
      I have never had a problem with the use of clove oil. Have no experience with MS-222. I found that I could get the clove oil to disperse in the water better by injecting it into the water with a syringe with the needle on, finely asperating the oil into the water, so that the soluble portion is dispersed, unlike adding drops into the tank. I have never had a fish not recover that I wanted to have recover. When I started, I would hold the fish in an upright position in a recovery tub, working it back and forth to try to get the oil out of the system, but later, I just took the fish and lowered it into the pond and it would sink to the bottom and then within less time than it took me to dump the clove oil tub, it was swimming, first like it was drunk, but soon normal. I know that the vets have to use MS-222, but it is harder to source when you are in an emergency situation.
      good advice rich. you can shake the clove oil to mix better. I've seen russ use ms222 and pretty much was a perfect injection and release and happened so fast

      if people think clove oil is is even near effective as ms222 then maybe I need to start a fresh thread and we can go off that.... regardless this fish had a swim bladder issue. not anything you could have done
      Last edited by kevin32; 12-16-2017 at 09:18 PM.

    20. #20
      coolwon is offline Senior Member
      is Garfield is my name DIY is my
      game
       
      Feeling:
      Cool
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2016
      Location
      Durban South Africa
      Posts
      636
      Of course if there are any water quality issues, this needs to be corrected. This is just what I wound prepare to do if any of my koi develop this problem. How long has it had this problem? Any thing happened that could have stressed this koi? Post water quality numbers.
      Here is a radiograph picture of a common carp that might help in land marking. I think there is a youtube video somewhere that shows the procedure.
      Name:  Common_carp_x-ray.jpg
Views: 183
Size:  47.2 KB[/QUOTE]

      Update.

      I believe this "swim bladder " problem arose from a simple accident. Our weather bureau forecast heavy consistent rains coming down the continent from Central Africa

      which was forecast to last for 4 or 5 days. Any rainfall falling on my roof is directed directly into my main pond from corner cut of the gutters.

      I made up a mix of water and baking powder in a 5-liter bucket. I cast the mix over the grow on pond and a portion of water mix went into the main pond and the bucket with the

      powder residue slipped and dropped into the grow on pond. My young wanting to please assistant reached over the pond and grabbed the bucket, tipped the remainder of the mix

      straight into grow on pond. GRRRRRRRRRRRR . This grow on pond is 1 of 5 (+- 2000 liters) of my upflow filter compartments and has regulated main pond water entering and turning

      the water over all day.

      I did not rush and shut the 4 up-flow filters down to drive the full flow of pond water through the baby pen to disperse the mix.

      I assumed the mix would dissolve and pass through the pond into the main pond with no hassles.

      I noticed the distressed fish a couple of days later.

      I found a reference to HARDNESS SHOCK.

      I believe this fish suffered from hardness shock.

      To date, I do not have a body.

      To date, I cannot net this particular fish using my 1-meter net

      This pond has an 18-inch high plastic fence to stop the jumpers jumping into the main pond.

      We don't have the wildlife you guys seem to have.

      I have always had a spot for Kujaku and I have never been able to net this fish easily.

      I sincerely hope it is alive and well and evading the net.

      Garfield
      Last edited by coolwon; 12-17-2017 at 05:02 AM.
      Find more about Weather in Durban, ZA

    Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •