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    Thread: Pond spin

    1. #21
      Russell Peters's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
      Most call it "pond spin". There are probably other terms for it too. In short, when the pond water slowly rotates (pond spin) then solids will settle to the center point of the pond (which is hopefully where the bottom drain was installed).

      But how fast should the pond spin? The research I found suggested 6 to 12 inches per second for high-density commercial trout and tilapia farming (measured at the furthest point from the bottom drain). Koi prefer much calmer waters so these number are likely on the high side. I would think around 3" per second is more like it.

      Has anyone stood next the pond with a stopwatch to measure this lately?
      You don't need pond spin to keep a pond clean. Here is 25,000 gallon pond with absolutely no pond returns (TPR's) and it is always clean. You can keep the water moving vertically with air and have no issues with any waste.

      http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...90#post2619890
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    2. #22
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      Quote Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
      Unbeknown to me, Norm Walsh passed on some months ago. I did not know Norm personally but got some idea of the man he was by reading his posts on this forum. He contributed much to our hobby and seeing that the video in question was posted to a public access Youtube channel, I decided to post the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmYHnvfiGmw
      he was a great man and a great asset to the hobby. I met him after he was sick and and was glad I got talk to him and his wife. good people

    3. #23
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      Regarding the return in circular tanks, I just recently read a study on trout where different return strategies were employed. One was a vertical pipe the depth of the tank with holes oriented tangentially to create spin and the other was the same vertical pipe but with a horizontal pipe at the top that pointed towards the center and had holes facing the same direction as the vertical pipe. The setup was a flow thru system with partial recirculation, so the bottom drain always had some flow out and the speed of the spin was independent of the drain flow. They found that using just the vertical tangential return provided the best bottom cleaning and that the addition of the horizontal bar near the surface decreased the bottom clearing but provided better mixing and a smaller low flow zone near the center bottom drain.

    4. #24
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      Quote Originally Posted by nil13 View Post
      Regarding the return in circular tanks, I just recently read a study on trout where different return strategies were employed. One was a vertical pipe the depth of the tank with holes oriented tangentially to create spin and the other was the same vertical pipe but with a horizontal pipe at the top that pointed towards the center and had holes facing the same direction as the vertical pipe. The setup was a flow thru system with partial recirculation, so the bottom drain always had some flow out and the speed of the spin was independent of the drain flow. They found that using just the vertical tangential return provided the best bottom cleaning and that the addition of the horizontal bar near the surface decreased the bottom clearing but provided better mixing and a smaller low flow zone near the center bottom drain.
      Thank you for your input nil13. I suspect we read the exact same study! You will notice the spin rate was rather high - much more current than what our koi would be comfortable with (IMO).

      It makes me wonder how koi would develop in a pond with horizontal currents (pond spin) vs vertical currents (airstones - see Russell Peters' post above).

      The nature of the vertical currents created by airstones are such that downward currents exist away from the airstones. I wonder if these downward currents would 'make koi less buoyant' and therefore force more exercise of their muscles and swim bladder?

    5. #25
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      Quote Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
      Thank you for your input nil13. I suspect we read the exact same study! You will notice the spin rate was rather high - much more current than what our koi would be comfortable with (IMO).

      It makes me wonder how koi would develop in a pond with horizontal currents (pond spin) vs vertical currents (airstones - see Russell Peters' post above).

      The nature of the vertical currents created by airstones are such that downward currents exist away from the airstones. I wonder if these downward currents would 'make koi less buoyant' and therefore force more exercise of their muscles and swim bladder?
      I build ponds the way I do because I have never seen a TPR in Japan, which is where all the best Koi come from, and they do not have any issues.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    6. #26
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      Quote Originally Posted by Jacques View Post

      It makes me wonder how koi would develop in a pond with horizontal currents (pond spin) vs vertical currents (airstones - see Russell Peters' post above).

      The nature of the vertical currents created by airstones are such that downward currents exist away from the airstones. I wonder if these downward currents would 'make koi less buoyant' and therefore force more exercise of their muscles and swim bladder?
      Yes those flow rates were pretty high, but they were also adjustable. So I imagine that you could slow it down to a koi appropriate rate.

      As for vertical flow, that study did address that. The teacup effect from the tangential return imparts both tangential spin and that toroidal spin that you see with an aerated bottom drain.

      Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

    7. #27
      Russell Peters's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by nil13 View Post
      Yes those flow rates were pretty high, but they were also adjustable. So I imagine that you could slow it down to a koi appropriate rate.

      As for vertical flow, that study did address that. The teacup effect from the tangential return imparts both tangential spin and that toroidal spin that you see with an aerated bottom drain.

      Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

      I question whether or not any vertical or horizontal current is even needed for the Koi, other than cleaning the waste from the pond.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    8. #28
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      Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
      I question whether or not any vertical or horizontal current is even needed for the Koi, other than cleaning the waste from the pond.
      Some current is going to always be necessary to clean waste and mix water. Even killifish tanks have circulation from an airlift sponge filter.

      Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

    9. #29
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      Quote Originally Posted by nil13 View Post
      Some current is going to always be necessary to clean waste and mix water. Even killifish tanks have circulation from an airlift sponge filter.

      Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk
      That is what I said
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    10. #30
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      Mine spins at about 15 feet per minute. One rotation takes about 4 minutes.
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    11. #31
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      Quote Originally Posted by nil13 View Post
      Yes those flow rates were pretty high, but they were also adjustable. So I imagine that you could slow it down to a koi appropriate rate ...
      But what is the appropriate rate for koi?

    12. #32
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      Quote Originally Posted by Marlo View Post
      Mine spins at about 15 feet per minute. One rotation takes about 4 minutes.
      That is what I am aiming for (15 ft/m = approx 7 or 8 cm/s). Returns flowing at just over 2 ft/s should induce pond spin equal to 15 ft/min (in a round / oval pond).

      Do you know the flow rate in your return/(s). And what size plumbing is used for the returns.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
      I question whether or not any vertical or horizontal current is even needed for the Koi, other than cleaning the waste from the pond.
      The only proper ponds I can think of without noticeable current (be it vertical or horizontal) are flow-through setups such as the Japanese mud ponds. But there are so many good things going on in mud ponds that their success cannot be attributed to the near absence of water currents.

    14. #34
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      Quote Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
      That is what I am aiming for (15 ft/m = approx 7 or 8 cm/s). Returns flowing at just over 2 ft/s should induce pond spin equal to 15 ft/min (in a round / oval pond).

      Do you know the flow rate in your return/(s). And what size plumbing is used for the returns.
      I don't know the rates. I'm running around 9000 gph and my 2 inch UV handles most of it via siphon. I'm guessing close to 150 gpm. When I add another 6000 gph to that my 4" standpipes take care of the rest. The pipes are angled about 45 and outlet just below the surface.
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    15. #35
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      Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
      I build ponds the way I do because I have never seen a TPR in Japan, which is where all the best Koi come from, and they do not have any issues.
      And the really good ponds outside of Japan are generally also without TPRs. I recently saw a few video clips of Mike Snaden's commercial ponds - rectangular shapes with Bakki showers discharging straight into the pond without any return plumbing to distribute the water or create currents. Lots of air being pumped in. With air pumps off, the water becomes very still without any visible currents.

    16. #36
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      Interesting topic. I learned from a video in a context of growing jumbo koi that a typical pond current is 9-11 inches per second. Apparently koi can even rest at this current speed. In a mud pond koi doesn't need current as they have all the space to swim around and constantly forage. You also have all that depth. In a backyard pond one can "mimic" mother nature by creating current for koi to exercise. Recently I've done away with my waterfall and instead use that flow as a jet to create such current in my oval pond. Koi seems to like swimming against the current during the day as they are mostly on top swimming and foraging. At night they like the peaceful rest below where there is hardly any current. I've had a situation where my koi could not escape the current and they clearly looked stressed to me. I also think that to some extent shear forces of currents will shear solids to finer pieces giving solids more surface area solubilizing it faster. Not having a bottom drain like I do, I thinks it's not good to have any current at the bottom for this reason.

      Video within at around 30:00
      http://www.clarkekoi.com/outings-akca-seminar-2009.html
      (If anybody knows who these speakers are, please let me know)

    17. #37
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      koi are basically colorful carp. carp often thrive in rivers with alot of current. fish have the ability to find eddies or just lay there fins down to reduce drag. it would take alot of current to overdue it i feel. and proposed to a continuous spin countercurrents like norm showed work great at keeping the bottom clean

    18. #38
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      Quote Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
      But what is the appropriate rate for koi?
      Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
      I question whether or not any vertical or horizontal current is even needed for the Koi, other than cleaning the waste from the pond.
      It is VERY RARE that Russell and I would agree on something but this is one of those cases. Water currents are only needed to keep the pond floor clean of waste settlement, and mix the filtered water with the non-filtered water inside the pond. The fish will be just fine exercising on their own. You don't need to create a specific current speed for them to be healthy, or else the breeders wouldn't grow their fish in mud ponds.

      Pond Spin, is just for waste removal in my opinion. That being said, I like a good bit of it in order to remove the solid waste from the pond as quickly as possible. My preferred method of water circulation is with underwater returns and as little aeration as possible through the bottom drains. The circular currents will bring the waste to the bottom drains faster, as the waste will remain on the bottom of the pond. Vertical water currents from aerated bottom drains are helping to keep solid waste suspended in the water which creates longer paths for the solid waste before they exit through a skimmer or bottom drain. Both methods of water movement end up working, it is just my personal preference to have circular currents with a cleaner pond surface (much better viewing of the fish).

      So everything I have stated so far has to do with removing waste from the pond, but you also need to have great filtration in order to keep a clean pond. If your mechanical filtration is not up to the waste removal task, then it doesn't matter how quickly the waste is removed from the pond because you are just sending waste back due to inadequate filtration. Everything needs to be designed as a system.

    19. #39
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      Quote Originally Posted by Zac Penn View Post
      It is VERY RARE that Russell and I would agree on something but this is one of those cases. Water currents are only needed to keep the pond floor clean of waste settlement, and mix the filtered water with the non-filtered water inside the pond. The fish will be just fine exercising on their own. You don't need to create a specific current speed for them to be healthy, or else the breeders wouldn't grow their fish in mud ponds.

      Pond Spin, is just for waste removal in my opinion. That being said, I like a good bit of it in order to remove the solid waste from the pond as quickly as possible. My preferred method of water circulation is with underwater returns and as little aeration as possible through the bottom drains. The circular currents will bring the waste to the bottom drains faster, as the waste will remain on the bottom of the pond. Vertical water currents from aerated bottom drains are helping to keep solid waste suspended in the water which creates longer paths for the solid waste before they exit through a skimmer or bottom drain. Both methods of water movement end up working, it is just my personal preference to have circular currents with a cleaner pond surface (much better viewing of the fish).

      So everything I have stated so far has to do with removing waste from the pond, but you also need to have great filtration in order to keep a clean pond. If your mechanical filtration is not up to the waste removal task, then it doesn't matter how quickly the waste is removed from the pond because you are just sending waste back due to inadequate filtration. Everything needs to be designed as a system.

      Both the comments are inaccurate. I have seen the opposite of what you are saying more often than not. If what you are saying is true then the Japanese breeders have it entirely wrong and those who are building ponds here are just not doing them correctly. I guess this means we are not agreeing.


      As a side note. I have not seen a pond as clear as the Corser pond, which uses the vertical water currents of the air domes, and he recently purged his 4" waste lines and there was nothing in there. This system is keeping his water crystal clear and is taking all of the debris to his Red Label RDF for removal. His pond looks like there is no water in there.
      Last edited by Russell Peters; 6 Days Ago at 12:01 PM.
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    20. #40
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      Quote Originally Posted by Zac Penn View Post
      ... Vertical water currents ... are helping to keep solid waste suspended in the water which creates longer paths for the solid waste before they exit through a skimmer or bottom drain. Both methods of water movement end up working ...
      Those with good underwater cameras will tell you that air suspends solids in a pond. But yes, both vertical and horizontal currents get the job done.

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