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    Thread: Evolution ESS6800 priming issues

    1. #1
      cottagefog is offline Senior Member
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      Evolution ESS6800 priming issues

      I am at my wits end to try to solve my issue. I cannot get my pump to fully prime and run at its designed GPH.

      From what I understand if there is an air leak before the pump it will suck air and have the issues I am having by the pump losing its prime

      Now when I say fully primed, I am talking water all the way to the top of the clear lid completely filling the leaf pot and the water fall having the normal looking water flow like in years past. This is my 4th or 5th year with this pump.

      Now let me add that for an hour last night I got the pump to run totally normal. Take the lid off, pour in a quarter bucket of water, close the lid, and plug in the pump. It stayed fully primed and water flowing at its normal heavy flow. Then like it has been doing all season long is slowly losing its prime. The water level lowers inside the leaf basket and the water flow goes to a small trickle.

      Now sometimes at the discharge in the pond I have bubbles. Sometimes I don't. I shut the pump off to re-prime it and the lid has some great great suction.

      Everything above water level has been replaced, or taken apart and retightened. Zero water leaks. All bolts have been inspected and tightened on the pump.
      Zero water leaks.

      Hooked up to this pump is two 2" pvc lines coming up from the bottom drains and joining to one and entering the pump. I have even dug up several areas where the pipes run underground thinking if there is a leak somewhere underground I might see a pool of water.

      I don't want to ramble on, and I have done more to try to isolate the problem, but wondering if someone else might have experienced this issue?

      Thanks for any help,
      Steve

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    2. #2
      Koiguync is offline Member
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      Ya i had to replace my check valve one time and a tee where the skimmer attached in. Wonder if replacing the pump is an option but i know the feeling.

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      Grumpy is offline Senior Member
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      How long does it take for the water flow to slow down? Have you checked if your suction lines are clear? Possibly they are restricted with debris.

    4. #4
      cottagefog is offline Senior Member
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      I did use a compressor and back blew with air. No issues and air went back through the pvc like a normal winter blow down.

      Again last night for an hour it ran like a champ. I even went in the house and grabbed my wife to show her what normal looks like. It was a miracle we were observing!

      Grumpy there really isn't a pattern. Sometimes it takes hours for the water to slow down. Sometimes overnight? Today it wont prime and I bet the water flow is just a few gallons a minute. Sometimes the leaf basket is at 50% full while pumping. Today is minimal. I have checked inside the pump for any obstructions. Everything is free and clear.

      I always wanted to upgrade to a larger pump but was waiting for this pump to fry, or more money grows on my money tree

    5. #5
      koiman1950's Avatar
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      The only other thing that I see hasn't been mentioned is simply lubing the o-ring gasket on the leaf trap lid. This is the cause of most of these types of issues. It's usually best to do this in Spring and Fall as temps change as the plastic can warp a bit and the o-rings can dry out some. Use only silicone o-ring/gasket lubricant. You can buy it as the big box stores in the plumbing section or at a swimming pool supply store. Clean the o-ring gently and then apply a new thin coating of lubricant. I bet this takes care of your problem.
      Mike

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    6. #6
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      Quote Originally Posted by koiman1950 View Post
      The only other thing that I see hasn't been mentioned is simply lubing the o-ring gasket on the leaf trap lid. This is the cause of most of these types of issues. It's usually best to do this in Spring and Fall as temps change as the plastic can warp a bit and the o-rings can dry out some. Use only silicone o-ring/gasket lubricant. You can buy it as the big box stores in the plumbing section or at a swimming pool supply store. Clean the o-ring gently and then apply a new thin coating of lubricant. I bet this takes care of your problem.
      And make sure the o-ring hasn't fallen off the lid. I've had this happen to customers and they beat their head against the wall for the same problem mentioned. If the prime pot isn't staying full and there are air bubbles coming out the discharge pipe, there has to be an air leak some where between where the suction hose comes out of the pond and the front of the pump. I'd also check the check valve to make sure it's not clogged and that the flapper hasn't broken off inside. This can cause an inconsistent flow of water like you're describing as well.
      Brian



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    7. #7
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      From what your describing I'm sure it'a an air leak. Either intake union gasket or lid o-ring or a crack in your inlet piping. Air is some how being sucked in before the pump.

    8. #8
      cottagefog is offline Senior Member
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      Thanks for all the input.
      The O ring is in place and very healthy looking. I do keep it lubed but I use WD-40 every time I take the lid off.

      Now when I remove the lid to re-prime the pump the lid has some great suction. You can hear the suction and the lid does have some resistance because of the suction.

      So last night when I went to bed the water was barely moving through the pump. My guess it would take about 30 seconds to fill a 5 gallon bucket.

      I have replaced, or eliminated every union or valve.

      The bottom drains I have are 3" tetra. Reduced to 2" PVC ( I listened to the wrong person when this was installed). Anyway I am thinking about diving in (6 ft deep) and sealing those two drains. An expandable plug? Then pressurize from the pump and see what happens?

      And again, at this time the pump is almost running at 100% normal without me messing with a thing.
      This morning when I woke up, the pump was dang near running to full capacity. Maybe about 3 inches from the top of the lid.

    9. #9
      kimini is offline Senior Member
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      Check the electrical connections - maybe there's a poor connection which is lowering the pump voltage. At least put a voltmeter on the pump electrical plug to see what it's running on.
      Author of Midlana, Build this High Performance Mid-engine Sports Car. http://midlana.com/stuff/book

    10. #10
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      Quote Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post
      How long does it take for the water flow to slow down? Have you checked if your suction lines are clear? Possibly they are restricted with debris.
      I'm kinda thinking a blockage too. My current setup has a mid water pickup that sometimes gets blocked up and reduces the level in the priming pot. Basically not enough incoming water for the pump to run at full capacity. Two inch line can get plugged pretty easily especially when it goes from 3" reduced to 2". I know you said you blew air through um, I'm wondering if there is still blockage.

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    11. #11
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      First off, stop using WD40 on the o-ring. You're ruining it by doing so. And, if you can "hear" the suction, then you have an air leak there. You shouldn't be able to hear ANYTHING when the pump is running other than the whirring of the shaft/motor.

      It could also be that a fish has gotten trapped in the transition between the 3" and 2" pipe joint and died and is breaking apart, but it would be causing more of a constant shortage of water passing through. The air test for this is kinda useless as air can easily pass by a dead fish.

      You're right though, you got bad advice. the pipe shouldn't have been downsized until it got right in front of the pump's leaf trap.

      i don't know how many of you know this but here's some info for you - in regards to the Advantage ESS units, the Wave Dragon units and a couple others, Waterways makes, and Advantage will usually supply a 2 1/2" female fitting within the union collar to allow larger/easier transition to 3" line. Most all of the ESS series units we order directly from them come with both the 2" and the 2 1/2" female tails so you can decide what you need. Also, if you read the literature about the Dragon units from WLim, you'll find a statement that says that these pumps should be run with 2 1/2" or 3" plumbing or you will NOT achieve the fully rated flow they advertise. Interesting info, huh?
      Mike

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      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

    12. #12
      cottagefog is offline Senior Member
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      From what I have read WD-40 is nothing but fish oil. I figured its just a none toxic lubricant.

      The suction I hear is when I take the lid off. This is after the pump is shut off. The pump is not running when I take the lid off.

      I remove the lid after the pump is shut down so I can pour in a 5 gallon bucket of water to "prime" the pump before plugging the pump back in.

      So I am a little confused by your assessment of maybe the lid being the problem so please be patient with me.

      Today since this morning the pump has been running about 75% flow . About 3 inches from the clear lid but a fair amount of water going over the falls. Yesterday you couldn't fill a coffee cup what was going over the falls.

      So lets say there is an object blocking one or both of the intakes. (all koi are accounted for)

      For those of us sucking from a bottom drain with a pump. If a shut off was to be dialed down before a pump it wouldn't lose its prime correct? It would continue to pump and the water would completely fill the leaf pot while running correct?

      When my pump is running there is no leaks. No noise abnormal. No sucking noise.

      I will take a dive this week to examine the intakes. Again thanks for the suggestions and inputs.

    13. #13
      rcmike is offline Supporting Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by cottagefog View Post
      From what I have read WD-40 is nothing but fish oil. I figured its just a none toxic lubricant.
      It's far from fish oil. I don't know about the toxicity of it but it is definitely not the best thing for O rings. They make special lubrication for them but some type of Silicon grease or even Vaseline is much better.

    14. #14
      cottagefog is offline Senior Member
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      Upon reading what's in WD40 I will stop using it. That's what I get from listening to a bunch of drunk fishermen using WD40 on their fishing lures!
      I will be getting a fish safe lube today.

    15. #15
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      Quote Originally Posted by rcmike View Post
      It's far from fish oil. I don't know about the toxicity of it but it is definitely not the best thing for O rings. They make special lubrication for them but some type of Silicon grease or even Vaseline is much better.
      Quote Originally Posted by cottagefog View Post
      Upon reading what's in WD40 I will stop using it. That's what I get from listening to a bunch of drunk fishermen using WD40 on their fishing lures!
      I will be getting a fish safe lube today.
      Even some sober fisherman couldn't tell a rubber lure from a plastic one and therein lies the difference. WD40 is harmful to rubber products and Vaseline is also not recommended as it is not a silicone based product. Use the proper lube and you'll probably eliminate the problem, BUT, in answer to your other question, if you have valves on the intake/suction line, and reduce the orifice, YES, it can/will cause your pump to starve for water. If you want to see if that's part of the problem, then open them to full flow and see if there's any difference. However, thinking about this, you mention that the water level in the leaf trap is about 3" below the lid. That is due to one of two things, insufficient intake or restricted output OR there's an air leak. As you situation is rather non-constant, I would think it's the latter. Believe it or not, I've actually seen and heard of the clear lexan lids becoming warped over time by weather conditions and they no longer will properly seal. Some even had come from the factory that way! Just something else to ponder!lol
      Mike

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    16. #16
      rcmike is offline Supporting Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by koiman1950 View Post
      WD40 is harmful to rubber products and Vaseline is also not recommended as it is not a silicone based product.
      Pretty sure most Oring lubricants are silicone based.

      There is one other possibility. If there is a restriction or the intake plumbing is too small the suction can actually decrease the pressure in the water enough that the gasses dissolved in it will come out of solution and cause bubbles even though there are no leaks. If you have a valve on the output of the pump try closing it down some and see if the problem stops.
      Last edited by rcmike; 07-10-2017 at 04:10 PM.

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      cottagefog is offline Senior Member
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      On my leaf lid. One attempt to prime my pump I used plumbers putty and made a nice gasket and installed the lid. Since it was clear I could see how well it sealed. Again unable to prime during that attempt to see if maybe it was the lid.

      It was a B-Kitty trying to clean up the lid from all that putty. When I replace the lid you can see the O-ring through the lid and it compressing the entire circle.

      As of today the pump hasn't lost, or gained any of its prime. Again running about 75% what it typically flows. I will attempt to bypass everything PAST the pump to see if there is any blockage but I doubt it. I still do see bubbles rising to the top of the water above the discharge.

      I have access to a diving mask supplied by an external air compressor. My water might be clear enough for me to dive and examine the two bottom drains to see if I have any blockage. Again I doubt it but you never know if maybe a plastic bag floated in, or one of those missing drunk fishermen fell in and the body is blocking one of those inputs?

      No valve on the output side of the pump to answer your question......stay tuned

    18. #18
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      I was referring the any valves on the INTAKE side. If they're closed even slightly, try opening them completely. Also try closing one completely and then the other in an attempt to pull harder on one line at a time.

      Plumber's putty? Why would think that would work? Just get the silicone gasket lube and be done with it.
      Mike

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      Iused plumbers putty because of several people telling me it was a warped lid. So I didn't have access to a new lid, or a new O-ring. Figured if it was a bad lid letting air through or a bad o-ring that putty would fill any air void and either solve the problem, or not solve the problem. It didn't solve the problem.

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      I am still thinking it is something within your suction line that slides, or flips, or rolls around inside the pipe and has the ability when randomly situated that it will nearly block the flow to the pump. My reason, your consistent statement you have a high suction with the pump off when attempting to remove the leaf basket lid. A suction should not be their with a air leak on the suction side. Also your pump has the ability to flow full volume at times while not making any abnormal sounds to indicate a mechanical failure of the impeller/bearings and the buildup in the pipe isn't bugs and such. The 3" to 2" reducer in the suction line, I would guess is where the object(s) are. Getting them out will be the challenge. Reversing the flow? Air blowing back toward the bottom drain? Removing the lid of the bottom drain will help? I wish you good luck and I hope I am wrong and it is something easier...

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