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    Thread: Thoughts on anoxic denitrification?

    1. #21
      KoiRun's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by kevin32 View Post
      yep. I'll try to weigh the food buddy.
      about 140 grams and water is 61 degrees. summer was more like triple that

      i like the kiss method. any rdf to a proper shower setup seems the best to me. simple but very effective in the end.
      Thanks Kevin. That's a really good reference. I'm sold on the RDF/shower combo (your anyways, others report an increase in nitrates; so maybe the turn-over rate is key after all). There is absolutely no way I can feed that much food (AND) have nitrates below 20ppm without crashing my pond. I'm only feeding 10-20 grams now and my nitrate is 5ppm but I'm changing 40% weekly. Then again my turn-over rate is every 15 minutes (4x).

      Anybody else feed so much food (give us weight/%water change/turn-over rate) and have low nitrates?
      Last edited by KoiRun; 3 Weeks Ago at 01:01 AM.

    2. #22
      mplskoi is online now Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by kdh View Post
      Curious. If it was working than why did you abandon it?
      I wanted to completely rebuild my pond. Got a chance to pick up a BE RDF for a good price and wanted to design something more compact for my bio filtration.

    3. #23
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      Quote Originally Posted by DragonFireSG View Post
      I'm thinking of incorporating an anoxic denitrification chamber into my new pond.

      This would be a 500-1000 gallon chamber stacked with Cermedia 8x8x4 blocks in a loose open grid.
      Flow through rates would be very low - such that the water in the chamber would turn over about once every 4 hours or so.

      The bottom of the chamber would be sloped towards the egress pipes, so some level of automatic purging would happen, and minimal sludge would collect.

      The output would go back into the pre-RDF chamber to mop up any nitrites that might result from incomplete de-nitrification. Given the low flow though and relatively calm conditions in that chamber, I could possibly even explore drip dosing of sucrose solution to aid the denitrification process.

      Diagram attached. (Any thoughts on the constant flushing setup where water from areas where sludge might collect is directed back to the main pond?)

      ==

      Do you think I would be better off just converting the whole thing to a huge moving bed.

      Currently the plan is a 500g moving bed + 2 large showers fed by a pair of modified zakki manifolds. The moving bed is the backup in case I need to reduce flow to the zakkis for night time operation. Not sure how amenable the new neighbour will be to the sound of rushing water.

      Looks like the pond will end up being 15,000 - 20,000 gallons, filter included.
      I was looking at your whole design in the other thread and wondered how many gph are going to the two showers?
      I do automatic water changes of about 20%/week but along with the shower I have never tested any nitrates in the pond. I wonder
      if with the showers you'd even benefit enough to make this worthwhile?
      With the collection chamber being fed with 3 x 6" and 1 x 4" BD's and 2 skimmers, how do you figure out how much a single 1 1/2"
      additional input pipe would flow? My hunch would be very little and debris would maybe collect on the bottom.

      You have some of the most creative designs I've ever seen.
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    4. #24
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      tested my nitrates today. somewhere between 10-20 ppm. imo the shower itself after the rdf is doing an amazing job. I have my spray bar literally crashing over the media.

      i would think doing the 500 gallon moving bed and 2 large showers would be your best bet. I'm been considering doing a moving bed and shower combo once I build my pond again. I feel they are both great and using both cant hurt
      Last edited by kevin32; 3 Weeks Ago at 02:28 PM.

    5. #25
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      I have never understood why anyone who has used a shower unit for bio filtration and oxygen level increase, would ever want to go back to a moving bed in combination. I understand that in some design cases, or retrofits, the moving bed makes sense. But why keep any waste/slough off in the system longer than necessary. An RDF will remove most all of the particulates that actually pass through it, but the slough off within a moving bed usually won't ever see the RDF. Save space and stick with a shower unit. I am not trying to force anything on anyone here as others think I do. I have no skin in any marketing for profit gain on anything here. I've installed many showers and in the past, moving beds/static bio filters. I didn't even install a shower unit on my own pond until 4 years ago because I wanted to make sure it would benefit my fish enough for the time to DIY one. So, my opinion and suggestion is based on actual use and performance of many systems over many years to recommend what appears to be, head and shoulders, above the rest. You don't need both and the bacteria that develop in both types of filters are still the same based on the mechanics of the water in situ.
      Mike

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    6. #26
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      Lo folks, thanks for the input so far.

      My current pond seems afflicted with a relatively high nitrate level despite the flow-through approach and decent amount of rainfall. I should probably look at increasing flowthrough. Tests this morning showed nitrate at 60-80ppm. No significant nitrite nor ammonia.

      @kdh

      A single basket will definitely achieve nothing. I was thinking of installing it in parallel, with it being fed by a very low flow of water from the main pond. measuring the quality of the outflow would allow me to gauge if the basket was doing anything at all - at least to the nitrate. This might be a good way for me to tweak how much flow through is actually needed for optimum efficiency of the filter.

      @kevin32

      Amazing nitrate numbers. How do you do your water change? Do you flush out old water and top up with new, or do you just trickle in fresh water, replacing whatever's been lost out the RDF? I'm turning over my pond 2.5x per hour too. Not seeing those nitrate numbers My media is 100% cermedia spheres. Tougher than the cubes, but less porous in exchange.

      @icu2

      I am looking at 30,000 gph or thereabouts going through the shower and waterfall.. Each shower and the main waterfall will be driven by their own pumps for redundancy. The showers will each be fed by 1 pump, with a valve connecting the two in case I need to take one pump offline. The waterfall face will be fed by a single pump. That pump line also potentially forks to a pair of chiller units for keeping the pond below 80F. Output from the chiller units will return near the bottom of the pond for maximum thermal efficiency - if you can call trying to cool an outdoor pond in a tropical country thermal efficiency

      @koiman1950

      Showers are absolutely great. I never actually intended to install an auxiliary filter since my planned shower/waterfall is already 100% redundant. It just occurred to me that I'd have to dig up that area for the linkage of the waste sump of the pond to a sewage inspection chamber at the back of the property. I figured that if I was going to break earth there, I might as well turn that area into a filter bed instead of filling it back in. Unfortunately as much as I would like to, I can't actually turn that area into more pond surface or I would have no means of doing maintenance on a planting/privacy strip bordering that area.

    7. #27
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      Quote Originally Posted by DragonFireSG View Post
      Lo folks, thanks for the input so far.

      My current pond seems afflicted with a relatively high nitrate level despite the flow-through approach and decent amount of rainfall. I should probably look at increasing flowthrough. Tests this morning showed nitrate at 60-80ppm. No significant nitrite nor ammonia.

      @kdh

      A single basket will definitely achieve nothing. I was thinking of installing it in parallel, with it being fed by a very low flow of water from the main pond. measuring the quality of the outflow would allow me to gauge if the basket was doing anything at all - at least to the nitrate. This might be a good way for me to tweak how much flow through is actually needed for optimum efficiency of the filter.

      @kevin32

      Amazing nitrate numbers. How do you do your water change? Do you flush out old water and top up with new, or do you just trickle in fresh water, replacing whatever's been lost out the RDF? I'm turning over my pond 2.5x per hour too. Not seeing those nitrate numbers My media is 100% cermedia spheres. Tougher than the cubes, but less porous in exchange.

      @icu2

      I am looking at 30,000 gph or thereabouts going through the shower and waterfall.. Each shower and the main waterfall will be driven by their own pumps for redundancy. The showers will each be fed by 1 pump, with a valve connecting the two in case I need to take one pump offline. The waterfall face will be fed by a single pump. That pump line also potentially forks to a pair of chiller units for keeping the pond below 80F. Output from the chiller units will return near the bottom of the pond for maximum thermal efficiency - if you can call trying to cool an outdoor pond in a tropical country thermal efficiency

      @koiman1950

      Showers are absolutely great. I never actually intended to install an auxiliary filter since my planned shower/waterfall is already 100% redundant. It just occurred to me that I'd have to dig up that area for the linkage of the waste sump of the pond to a sewage inspection chamber at the back of the property. I figured that if I was going to break earth there, I might as well turn that area into a filter bed instead of filling it back in. Unfortunately as much as I would like to, I can't actually turn that area into more pond surface or I would have no means of doing maintenance on a planting/privacy strip bordering that area.
      i actually do both. I add new water here and there...and other times I drain out the old water and add new water.. i do believe lower nitrates is a good thing.. despite large water changes etc.. I rarely saw less than 80 ppm on my ponds before the rdf and shower. not sure what is reducing my nitrates with the huge fish load I have now but it seems to be working well for me lol.

      also I have my waste tray propped open in my rdf so I don't replace water as needed from the rdf loss.. me and my friend both have some feather rock in our showers and are both showing lower nitrate levels..my feather rock is in my 1st tier of the shower and my water is crashing over the feather rock. I feel the crashing effect helps degass things further.
      Last edited by kevin32; 3 Weeks Ago at 04:08 AM.

    8. #28
      DragonFireSG is offline Senior Member
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      Joy. Singapore being a petrochemical hub has no lack of spill prevention and rectification products.
      We have a local Oil Dri distributor selling the 50lb sacks of the coarse grain stuff for only the equivalent of US$18 each. A small premium over stateside, but not one that's over the top.
      At least now I know I will be able to find the materials to build and maintain the anoxic filter in industrial quantities
      I need to find me some laterite now. I'm not sure I should use the stuff that comes out of the ground by the road side over here. It's laterite, but I don't know what *else* it contains.

    9. #29
      DragonFireSG is offline Senior Member
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      I've been digging through archived information on the subject.

      It seems that the general consensus is that the anoxic filter should get first dibs on the poo water as the Anammox process directly converts ammonia to nitrogen gas.
      This means no nitrate end product. I have to admit though that the hydrazine (rocket fuel) intermediary is a pretty scary one

      As part of the research I detemined the reason for the laterite requirement.

      The bacteria responsible for the anammox have a large quantity of cytochome c proteins. This protein has an iron atom at its core, and is a key requirement for the anammox process.
      No iron, no (or rather, greatly reduced) anammox.

      All that said, filter design will probably involve inserting traditional bakki/zakki showers behind the anoxic system to have as much ammonia removed from the water as possible with no remaining reaction products in the water. Any ammonia leaking through will be converted to nitrate by the aerobic process.

      To handle situations that might arise if unexpected conditions cause major knockback of the anoxic microbes, some bypass water will need to be injected into the showers to keep them primed with beneficial bacteria. By many accounts, a properly sized anoxic system works so well that the showers will get starved of food.

      Incidentally the anammox process uses relatively little carbonates (only when it is consuming nitrates - direct ammonia to N2 process does not use any carbonates), which means it won't consume KH as rapidly as our aerobic systems.

    10. #30
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      DragonFireSG, very interesting.

      Can you point me to more information about the anammox bacteria's need for iron due to "a large quantity of cytochome c protein"?

    11. #31
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      Quote Originally Posted by DragonFireSG View Post
      ....By many accounts, a properly sized anoxic system works so well that the showers will get starved of food.
      I have not read of these reported accounts, but the statement above makes me curious: By what metric would one determine that a shower was starved of food?

    12. #32
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      When I built my pond in 2014-15 I planned on using anoxic baskets... two totes with 30 baskets in each one flowing 7k gph. For mechanical I had two large vortexes and 4 80 gal sand n gravel filters... I added a Profidrum in august 2015, this summer I removed all of the sand n gravel filters and anoxic baskets, they were holding to much waste in my opinion. It seemed I could never get them clean even after the Profidrum. I added a large shower with 10 sheets of grey matala in summer of 2016. So this summer after removing the s/gs and anoxic baskets I added a Ultima II 20k that I got used and also 10 cubic feet of MB3 moving bed. The other tote is static strapping as it is all I had for media at the time. I also started feeding 4lbs a day in growth season "which is over double what I fed in previous seasons" and my water has never looked better. All parameters test ok but I'm more interested in how the water looks and growth of the fish since I am trying to be competitive in showing... So to sum up my point, anoxic filtration works and is economical but in my own experience I like the look and performance of the more traditional filtration for bio. I was never able to get the water to shine with anoxic, other than by using chemical means. With the filtration now I have cut my chemical treatments by 75% or more. I'm not trying to sway any one in any direction just sharing my experience with it over the last few years.

    13. #33
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      Quote Originally Posted by Josh H View Post
      When I built my pond in 2014-15 I planned on using anoxic baskets... two totes with 30 baskets in each one flowing 7k gph. For mechanical I had two large vortexes and 4 80 gal sand n gravel filters... I added a Profidrum in august 2015, this summer I removed all of the sand n gravel filters and anoxic baskets, they were holding to much waste in my opinion. It seemed I could never get them clean even after the Profidrum. I added a large shower with 10 sheets of grey matala in summer of 2016. So this summer after removing the s/gs and anoxic baskets I added a Ultima II 20k that I got used and also 10 cubic feet of MB3 moving bed. The other tote is static strapping as it is all I had for media at the time. I also started feeding 4lbs a day in growth season "which is over double what I fed in previous seasons" and my water has never looked better. All parameters test ok but I'm more interested in how the water looks and growth of the fish since I am trying to be competitive in showing... So to sum up my point, anoxic filtration works and is economical but in my own experience I like the look and performance of the more traditional filtration for bio. I was never able to get the water to shine with anoxic, other than by using chemical means. With the filtration now I have cut my chemical treatments by 75% or more. I'm not trying to sway any one in any direction just sharing my experience with it over the last few years.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rY0WxgSXdEE

    14. #34
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      @Grumpy
      First off, wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anammox
      The picture of the anammox reactor in the article got me interested as the thing was blood red. That suggested a high iron concentration.
      https://www.researchgate.net/publica...nium_oxidation
      There are also studies that indicated dosing of iron (ii) oxide increased the maturation rate of anammox based reactors.
      https://www.nature.com/articles/srep08204

      @Paultergeist
      This would probably only apply in an inline system where all the water flows through an anoxic filter before it his the shower. I believe this would be the case for almost any system, whether it be aerobic or anoxic. Folk have long reported slow development of moving bed systems fed with shower output. A highly effective filter, whatever the make, will strip nutrients from the water stream and starve any system being fed by the effluent. An anammox based filter will metabolise ammonia and nitrite to N2. If anoxic filter is oversized and limited in function by the available food supply, a shower fed with filter effluent would be left very little ammonia or nitrite for fuel.

      @Josh H
      Thanks for sharing your experiences with the system. What sort of chemical treatments are you referring to? KMnO4 dosing?

      @kdh
      I blame you for making me spend all my free time last night watching Queen videos on youtube. :D

    15. #35
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      @Josh H
      Thanks for sharing your experiences with the system. What sort of chemical treatments are you referring to? KMnO4 dosing?

      Yes I was referring to KMNO4... Thanks

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