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    Thread: Thoughts on anoxic denitrification?

    1. #1
      DragonFireSG is offline Senior Member
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      Thoughts on anoxic denitrification?

      I'm thinking of incorporating an anoxic denitrification chamber into my new pond.

      This would be a 500-1000 gallon chamber stacked with Cermedia 8x8x4 blocks in a loose open grid.
      Flow through rates would be very low - such that the water in the chamber would turn over about once every 4 hours or so.

      The bottom of the chamber would be sloped towards the egress pipes, so some level of automatic purging would happen, and minimal sludge would collect.

      The output would go back into the pre-RDF chamber to mop up any nitrites that might result from incomplete de-nitrification. Given the low flow though and relatively calm conditions in that chamber, I could possibly even explore drip dosing of sucrose solution to aid the denitrification process.

      Diagram attached. (Any thoughts on the constant flushing setup where water from areas where sludge might collect is directed back to the main pond?)

      ==

      Do you think I would be better off just converting the whole thing to a huge moving bed.

      Currently the plan is a 500g moving bed + 2 large showers fed by a pair of modified zakki manifolds. The moving bed is the backup in case I need to reduce flow to the zakkis for night time operation. Not sure how amenable the new neighbour will be to the sound of rushing water.

      Looks like the pond will end up being 15,000 - 20,000 gallons, filter included.

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      Last edited by DragonFireSG; 3 Weeks Ago at 03:34 AM.

    2. #2
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      Far from being an expert. I'm just trying to learn here so take my opinions with a few grains of salt!!! I have read a lot about how water treatment plants reduce nitrogen/nitrates.
      I think with such a huge turn-over in that 1000G tank, it would be really difficult to slow the water down enough to get any sort of denitrification, or enough denitrification to make it worth your while especially to the kind of nitrogen load (feeding) that are typical in the hobby.
      I'm mainly interested in that I am planning on building a denitrification chamber next year that will be an off-shoot (not parallel) from the main circulation to take care of nitrates in the hopes of reducing water changes. It will also serve as part fines removal/settler and overflow.
      Last edited by KoiRun; 3 Weeks Ago at 01:21 PM.

    3. #3
      DragonFireSG is offline Senior Member
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      The turnover in the anoxic chamber will be fairly low as the only way out is down through the narrow bottom drainage lines.
      Most of the fast moving water from the pump will bypass the chamber over the perforated horizontal plates.
      The plates also act as baffles to reduce turbulence, and should keep flow through the anoxic chamber relatively laminar.

      Water samples can be taken at the outlet into the mixing chamber.
      In fact an ORP meter could be stuck in there for real time monitoring of the oxygen content of the output water to ensure the chamber doesn't go entirely anaerobic.

      I'm also wondering if I should look at biocenosis baskets as an alternative to Cermedia. If there's one thing plentiful over here, its laterite.

      Edit: Maybe I should make this filter all anoxic. I think the double, maybe triple height twin zakki showers at the other end of the pond will handle total pond filtration with ease - and I don't really intend to stock very heavily.
      Last edited by DragonFireSG; 3 Weeks Ago at 09:24 PM.

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      DragonFireSG is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by KoiRun View Post
      A great discourse. Marine hobbyists have been using small scale systems dosed with vodka or acetic acid for a long time now. The koi hobby is behind in this aspect.

    6. #6
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      Then there's anammox... (you won't need sugar or any electron donor).
      I think it's perfectly do-able.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAVk...L1WzA&index=13
      Last edited by KoiRun; 3 Weeks Ago at 11:36 PM.

    7. #7
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      Quote Originally Posted by DragonFireSG View Post
      A great discourse. Marine hobbyists have been using small scale systems dosed with vodka or acetic acid for a long time now. The koi hobby is behind in this aspect.
      From the video above:
      "Just lately, 10-15 years ago, we discovered that the nitrogen cycle is not a cycle at all, it's more like a web. It's a complex interactions among several types of bacteria where basically anything can happen between the nitrogen forms... Ammonium can indeed be oxidized using nitrite as an electron acceptor instead of oxygen."

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    8. #8
      DragonFireSG is offline Senior Member
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      I've been wondering. In the typical porous ceramic type filter used in static sumps and showers, there are anoxic regions deep within the filter media. Would carbon dosing be sufficient to give the anoxic bacteria the boost they need to perform nitrate removal? I think that is something that might merit testing. Nitrate removal does not happen ordinarily without a carbon source. Sugars in the koi feed we provide may provide some carbon that goes into solution - but this is probably far from sufficient.

    9. #9
      DragonFireSG is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by KoiRun View Post
      Then there's anammox... (you won't need sugar or any electron donor).
      I think it's perfectly do-able.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAVk...L1WzA&index=13
      Hydrazine! That's rocket fuel!

      This may be the class of organism found in biocenosis baskets, which remove nitrates without dosing carbon.
      Last edited by DragonFireSG; 3 Weeks Ago at 12:15 AM.

    10. #10
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      I think there is always a carbon source (feed/waste - docs) for heterotrophic bacteria. Too much is actually inhibitory to nitrification such that ammonia does not get converted all the way nitrate. Another thing that happens is that ammonia and existing nitrate along with organic carbon is used directly by bacteria giving off C02, hydrogen gas, and producing more bacteria (sludge). Carbon dosing will probably not work in a koi pond. I think it will end up plugging the filters and/or causing murky water (bacterial bloom) if not dosed right. I don't know how marine hobbyists does it (I guess it comes down to a fine art). I'm also guessing that because ponds are outdoors, it is less controlled (compared to an indoor aquarium) - eg. temperature, amount of rain pollution, daylight (algae growth/death), wind variability come into play in an outdoor pond.

    11. #11
      DragonFireSG is offline Senior Member
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      I think I will build a biocenosis basket to trial in my current pond to see if it affects nitrate levels.
      Found a source of 100% clay non clumping litter from oil dri. Stuff's pricey here, like most things pet. US$5 for 10 pounds.
      You guys probably get 3x the amount for the same price

    12. #12
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      a basket well accomplish nothing.

      The subject is more complicated when actually building one of these systems for a koi pond. Here is interesting read from Koi Bito.

      http://www.koi-bito.com/forum/main-f...tration-4.html

      It also takes up a lot of room. And maintenance is still required.

      Some have built these with good success. Others, not so good.

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      I played around with biocensis (sp?) pots a few years ago. Seemed that I got pretty good water parameters at the time. I think the advantage of running a system in which you don't need to lift water is worth the effort. Energy savings! Showers are great but require 2-3 feet of lift minimum and realistically more like 4-5.

      Running an RDF to an anoxic bio chamber seems pretty appealing.
      Right now I am running my water thru an RDF to a chamber full of H1. The H1 is hanging on wires, about 5 feet long into the chamber. I have about 200 pieces in there. Equally spaced so water just flows by. This means in my cold season (which is 4-6 months here) I can use very little power and keep my water flowing past this media. Working great so far.

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      Quote Originally Posted by mplskoi View Post
      I played around with biocensis (sp?) pots a few years ago. Seemed that I got pretty good water parameters at the time. I think the advantage of running a system in which you don't need to lift water is worth the effort. Energy savings! Showers are great but require 2-3 feet of lift minimum and realistically more like 4-5.

      Running an RDF to an anoxic bio chamber seems pretty appealing.
      Right now I am running my water thru an RDF to a chamber full of H1. The H1 is hanging on wires, about 5 feet long into the chamber. I have about 200 pieces in there. Equally spaced so water just flows by. This means in my cold season (which is 4-6 months here) I can use very little power and keep my water flowing past this media. Working great so far.
      Curious. If it was working than why did you abandon it?

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      stillwee is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by DragonFireSG View Post
      The turnover in the anoxic chamber will be fairly low as the only way out is down through the narrow bottom drainage lines.
      M

      I'm also wondering if I should look at biocenosis baskets as an alternative to Cermedia. If there's one thing plentiful over here, its laterite.

      Edit: Maybe I should make this filter all anoxic. I think the double, maybe triple height twin zakki showers at the other end of the pond will handle total pond filtration with ease - and I don't really intend to stock very heavily.
      From my understanding and based on my low-cost setup, biocenosis-baskets-based anoxic filter would actually be more effective with water "moving relatively fast" pass the baskets where ionic attraction of the nitrogenous compounds towards the center of the baskets thus occur.

    16. #16
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      I'll have to measure today to make sure I'm not wrong. but since running my rdf on my 1400 gallon intex then to a diy shower with feather rock up top and ceramic media in the other 2 tiers i have not seen over 20 ppm in my pond and have had 0 health issues as well. there is about 48 koi in there and my water parameters have been great..some claim to have high nitrates after a rdf and a shower. me and my buddy both have seen very low nitrates and both using blue eco to diy showers. he is actually showing about 5-10 ppm but also has a low fish count compared to me

    17. #17
      KoiRun's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by kevin32 View Post
      I'll have to measure today to make sure I'm not wrong. but since running my rdf on my 1400 gallon intex then to a diy shower with feather rock up top and ceramic media in the other 2 tiers i have not seen over 20 ppm in my pond and have had 0 health issues as well. there is about 48 koi in there and my water parameters have been great..some claim to have high nitrates after a rdf and a shower. me and my buddy both have seen very low nitrates and both using blue eco to diy showers. he is actually showing about 5-10 ppm but also has a low fish count compared to me
      How much are you feeding now daily in grams and how much water are you changing?
      And turnover? Thanks.

    18. #18
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      Quote Originally Posted by KoiRun View Post
      How much are you feeding now daily in grams and how much water ar7e you changing?
      And turnover? Thanks.
      i just feed what they want to eat shortly .i generally change about 20 % a week and my turnover I feel is key at 2.5 an hour. my water is polished like glass and the best I've ever had in my pond.

      showers seem to show the truth. if I have excessive docs then we use a phoam extractor to remove want might be excessive nitrates as well. i have not needed a phoam extractor and have 0 bubbles on my pond surface
      Last edited by kevin32; 3 Weeks Ago at 08:00 PM.

    19. #19
      KoiRun's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by kevin32 View Post
      i just feed what they want to eat shortly .i generally change about 20 % a week and my turnover I feel is key at 2.5 an hour. my water is polished like glass and the best I've ever had in my pond
      Anyway you can weight? This would be great info since your system is so simple. Just RDF and shower right?
      Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time. ---- Marthe Troly-Curtin



    20. #20
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      Quote Originally Posted by KoiRun View Post
      Anyway you can weight? This would be great info since your system is so simple. Just RDF and shower right?
      yep. I'll try to weigh the food buddy.
      about 140 grams and water is 61 degrees. summer was more like triple that

      i like the kiss method. any rdf to a proper shower setup seems the best to me. simple but very effective in the end.
      Last edited by kevin32; 3 Weeks Ago at 08:57 PM.

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