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  • Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
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    Thread: Using copper pipe for heat exchanger

    1. #21
      koiman1950's Avatar
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      Nice attitude Kirk. That had nothing to do with my comment. Pm me to discuss.
      Mike

      check out our website at: http://www.pond-life.net



      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

    2. #22
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      yeah or a phone call lol. I was kinda in shock myself. kinda a poor attitude.

    3. #23
      koiman1950's Avatar
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      Especially when he finds out what the real inference was meant for. I don't see how I have skin in the game either as I know nothing about the subject!
      Mike

      check out our website at: http://www.pond-life.net



      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

    4. #24
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      Quote Originally Posted by koiman1950 View Post
      Especially when he finds out what the real inference was meant for. I don't see how I have skin in the game either as I know nothing about the subject!
      you thanked and liked hp saying thanks Kirk. maybe he took it wrong and we can all still get along. jezz

    5. #25
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      Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
      The problem with all of this is that none of these sources, nor anyone here, really know for sure if the copper in a heat exchanger really is toxic to Koi. Granted, copper is toxic to Koi but, is the copper in the heat exchanger toxic to Koi. Maybe...does it depend on water chemistry, does it depend on the time of day...I have NEVER seen any conclusive information on this from any source. I have read about lakes that have copper levels that should kill fish just by looking at it yet it doesn't. What is the right combination? I don't know. What I do know is this, I have been using copper heat exchangers, to heat my Koi ponds, for over 10 years. I have never had an issue.


      For every one that says they would never use a copper pipe in a Koi pond I say this, you are probably adding water to your pond from your house tap which is copper. Why are your Koi still alive?

      Why do we carry out all those % pond water changes?

      Are they not carried out to dilute the pond water of all those ugly buildups that might occur from the day to day running of the open pond water.

      Garfield
      Find more about Weather in Durban, ZA

    6. #26
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      i have copper pipes in my house. I've done as large as 50% water changes and no problems. I've left the hose on all night and killed many of my fish from chlorine or chloramine idk for sure. but russ had 5 figure fish In his pond and all was well. winter only lasts so long. so back to the same old thing. does long term exposure matter more. hard to say really..

    7. #27
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      Verdigris. I recall on a pond safari, pond brushes with probably s/steel wire twists and loops supported on lengths refrigeration copper tubing showing signs of a verdigris build

      up.

      This method of supporting the tubing and brushes looked like a definite no-no over open pond filter water.

      Garfield
      Find more about Weather in Durban, ZA

    8. #28
      Russell Peters's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by coolwon View Post
      Why do we carry out all those % pond water changes?

      Are they not carried out to dilute the pond water of all those ugly buildups that might occur from the day to day running of the open pond water.

      Garfield

      I did it to keep the water healthy but, in doing so, I ran a 24 hour a day flow through of at least 20%. This means that the Koi had exposure to a constant water flow from copper pipes. Hmmmm...
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    9. #29
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      Quote Originally Posted by koiman1950 View Post
      Nice attitude Kirk. That had nothing to do with my comment. Pm me to discuss.
      No need. I took your posting the wrong way. My apologies.

      Reading the articles I posted and others. It seems that all ponds are different on how they can deal with levels of copper. So it comes down to the overall system. However copper stays in the koi's tissue. Like mercury in fish from the ocean I guess.

      Apparently if a koi is exposed to low levels of copper for an extended time. It can create health issues.

      It would probably be a good idea to periodically check copper levels in your pond if copper is introduced.
      Last edited by kdh; 4 Weeks Ago at 09:45 AM.

    10. #30
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      Quote Originally Posted by kdh View Post
      No need. I took your posting the wrong way. My apologies.

      Reading the articles I posted and others. It seems that all ponds are different on how they can deal with levels of copper. So it comes down to the overall system. However copper stays in the koi's tissue. Like mercury in fish from the ocean I guess.

      Apparently if a koi is exposed to low levels of copper for an extended time. It can create health issues.

      It would probably be a good idea to periodically check copper levels in your pond if copper is introduced.
      .

    11. #31
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      Copper like other minerals, in trace amounts, are needed in proper physiologic functioning. Anything higher than what is required can be considered added stress; something that the kidneys and liver have to deal with and spend extra energy regulating. Though you can heat water in a copper exchanger (and use ion-gen to get rid of algae), you risk adding copper far more than is required by fish and other pond inhabitants and will cause some low level (unnecessary added) stress. Do you want to do that, then go ahead. Best to weigh risk/benefits using educated* guesses. There are better ways to heat your pond.

      I like this G.A.S. model in thinking about how koi deal with stress (cold, toxins, infections etc):
      https://www.healthline.com/health/ge...rome#overview1
      Last edited by KoiRun; 4 Weeks Ago at 11:34 AM.
      Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time. ---- Marthe Troly-Curtin



    12. #32
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      Okay I found this quote from Steve Walker owner of the Advantage Koi Pond Heater and Sacramento Koi
      From Koi USA magazine
      No copper
      “Copper is toxic to koi! At high levels, copper can kill koi. However even at low levels it has been proven to greatly lower their immune system, making them more susceptible to getting sick. Many swimming pool heaters use copper for their heat exchangers because of its ability to transfer heat exceptionally well. When the copper is heated to a high temperature though, it begins to shed copper into the water at a much faster rate than a standard copper water line”
      So to conclude wholehouse copper is acceptable for me but naw I ain’t gonna touch that copper heater
      M.Nguyen


    13. #33
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      .003 is toxic To koi and seems trout have higher tolerance. sodium thio can remove the copper if needed. I was hesitant to post this but figured what do I have to lose.... nothing lol

      regardless i would minimize any copper in the system as possible..

      funny russ did a 20% flow through after the huge centeur carbon filter. maybe all the details should be disclosed. we know all facts are not there at times lol..carbon filters remove metals right? silly rabbits
      Last edited by kevin32; 4 Weeks Ago at 11:46 PM.

    14. #34
      Russell Peters's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by OCkoiFan View Post
      Okay I found this quote from Steve Walker owner of the Advantage Koi Pond Heater and Sacramento Koi
      From Koi USA magazine
      No copper
      “Copper is toxic to koi! At high levels, copper can kill koi. However even at low levels it has been proven to greatly lower their immune system, making them more susceptible to getting sick. Many swimming pool heaters use copper for their heat exchangers because of its ability to transfer heat exceptionally well. When the copper is heated to a high temperature though, it begins to shed copper into the water at a much faster rate than a standard copper water line”
      So to conclude wholehouse copper is acceptable for me but naw I ain’t gonna touch that copper heater

      I would hazard to say that is not a credible source.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    15. #35
      Russell Peters's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by kevin32 View Post
      .003 is toxic To koi and seems trout have higher tolerance. sodium thio can remove the copper if needed. I was hesitant to post this but figured what do I have to lose.... nothing lol

      regardless i would minimize any copper in the system as possible..

      funny russ did a 20% flow through after the huge centeur carbon filter. maybe all the details should be disclosed. we know all facts are not there at times lol..carbon filters remove metals right? silly rabbits
      No, you are wrong.


      Carbon filters are not particularly successful at removing dissolved inorganic contaminants and heavy metals such as minerals, salts, antimony, arsenic, asbestos, barium, beryllium, cadmium, chromium, copper, fluoride, mercury, nickel, nitrates, selenium, sulfate, thallium and other contaminants, which may require a ...
      What Do Carbon Filters Remove From Water? | LIVESTRONG.COM
      https://www.livestrong.com/article/1...ve-from-water/


      It is also used in cigarette filters. Active charcoal carbon filters are most effective at removing chlorine, sediment, volatile organic compounds (VOCs), taste and odor from water. They are not effective at removing minerals, salts, and dissolved inorganic compounds.

      Carbon filtering - Wikipedia
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_filtering
      Active charcoal carbon filters are most effective at removing chlorine, sediment, volatile organic compounds (VOCs), taste and odor from water. They are not effective at removing minerals, salts, and dissolved inorganic compounds.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    16. #36
      kevin32's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
      No, you are wrong.


      Carbon filters are not particularly successful at removing dissolved inorganic contaminants and heavy metals such as minerals, salts, antimony, arsenic, asbestos, barium, beryllium, cadmium, chromium, copper, fluoride, mercury, nickel, nitrates, selenium, sulfate, thallium and other contaminants, which may require a ...
      What Do Carbon Filters Remove From Water? | LIVESTRONG.COM
      https://www.livestrong.com/article/1...ve-from-water/


      It is also used in cigarette filters. Active charcoal carbon filters are most effective at removing chlorine, sediment, volatile organic compounds (VOCs), taste and odor from water. They are not effective at removing minerals, salts, and dissolved inorganic compounds.

      Carbon filtering - Wikipedia
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_filtering
      Active charcoal carbon filters are most effective at removing chlorine, sediment, volatile organic compounds (VOCs), taste and odor from water. They are not effective at removing minerals, salts, and dissolved inorganic compounds.
      so I guess copper is fine then. you win!

    17. #37
      DragonFireSG is offline Senior Member
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      My personal thoughts:

      Filling from copper pipes is ok as this is generally a one-time affair. The water contacts the copper for a short period of time before entering the pond. Recirculating water through copper pipes on the other hand, especially hot water, I would be more cautious of. In a closed recirculating system, copper ions will get the chance to increase in level over time.

      Why not 316L stainless steel? It has poorer heat transfer characteristics, but is readily available in rolls like copper and can still be hand worked at smaller diameters.

    18. #38
      BWG is online now Senior Member
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      There are probably different ways of doing things but the diy copper heat exchangers I have seen circulated hot water in a closed loop internally and cooler pond water circulated on the outside of the coil. The coils had a visible coating on the outside of noncorrosive nature typical of aged copper. This is typically what happens in normal conditions in home copper water pipe and it has been proven this coating is protective in nature and slows the ion transfer. This is why homes with new copper pipe initially have higher levels until the coating builds up. Maybe why people who use them have zero problems.

      Not an endorsement of using copper coil heat exchangers but a plausible explanation why no negative effects.
      Last edited by BWG; 4 Weeks Ago at 08:20 AM.

    19. #39
      BWG is online now Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by DragonFireSG View Post
      My personal thoughts:

      Why not 316L stainless steel? It has poorer heat transfer characteristics, but is readily available in rolls like copper and can still be hand worked at smaller diameters.
      Just multiply 4 to 6X the copper coil length and use PEX. It's low cost.

      But beware someone will probably find a health risk with cross linked poly in the future 😨
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    20. #40
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      Quote Originally Posted by BWG View Post
      Just multiply 4 to 6X the copper coil length and use PEX. It's low cost.

      But beware someone will probably find a health risk with cross linked poly in the future ��
      All of my new systems will have PEX tubing in the concrete. I am doing this because it is much less expensive.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

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