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    Thread: Hikui

    1. #1
      GloriaL's Avatar
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      Hikui

      Not an emergency, just thought a discussion of this issue might be enlightening, or not. I haven't seen any recent threads on this issue, so here goes! As I understand it hikui is a disease of the beni on the koi. You see a lightening of the color and a ragged appearance to the skin, which in some cases sloughs off. I have hears the etiology posted as genetic, poor water conditions, or possibly viral.
      Is it contagious or are all of the fish in bad water? Treatment? It seems there are as many treatments as there are koi keepers. Scrape it, 'cauterize' it with a choice of several caustic agents, then 'bandage' it or not. Does it progress to cause fish to lose the beni all over or just locally. Should you get rid of a fish wth hikui? Really curious to see if there has been any new information on this cosmetic (but ruinous to show fish) disease.
      GloriaL
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    2. #2
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      Quote Originally Posted by GloriaL View Post
      Not an emergency, just thought a discussion of this issue might be enlightening, or not. I haven't seen any recent threads on this issue, so here goes! As I understand it hikui is a disease of the beni on the koi. You see a lightening of the color and a ragged appearance to the skin, which in some cases sloughs off. I have hears the etiology posted as genetic, poor water conditions, or possibly viral.
      Is it contagious or are all of the fish in bad water? Treatment? It seems there are as many treatments as there are koi keepers. Scrape it, 'cauterize' it with a choice of several caustic agents, then 'bandage' it or not. Does it progress to cause fish to lose the beni all over or just locally. Should you get rid of a fish wth hikui? Really curious to see if there has been any new information on this cosmetic (but ruinous to show fish) disease.
      Hi Gloria I have had my share of experience with hikui.

      I do not think it is caused by bad water or that it is contagious. Genetics is probably a factor.

      I see no reason to get rid of a fish with hikui but I also do not think that there is any efficient treatment for it altho some claim otherwise. I think they are wrong. It will not improve IMHO!

    3. #3
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      Gloria, I had a hariwake with hikui. I didn't see any sign of contagion to others. good luck!



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    4. #4
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    5. #5
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      In my opinion hikui is the state of aging in gosanke koi. That’s how life goes on and there is nothing we can do about it. At least from my experience.
      M.Nguyen


    6. #6
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      [QUOTE=kdh;2645667]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27311577[/QUOTE/

      Wow !! Thanks so much! So it sounds like a superficial cancer. Any indication of genetic links?
      GloriaL
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    7. #7
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      [QUOTE=GloriaL;2645679]
      Quote Originally Posted by kdh View Post
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27311577[/QUOTE/

      Wow !! Thanks so much! So it sounds like a superficial cancer. Any indication of genetic links?
      There is a breeder that I have personal knowledge of, from a distributor in Japan who told me that even though a specific oyagoi had a back case of hikui and it was constantly passed on to the offspring, continued to use this specific oyagoi. I had purchased a couple of sansai that developed this dreaded malady within the first year of having them. I also saw MANY other fish from this breeder/oyagoi, that developed it while in possession of the local dealer. Many were put down as they were causing a serious lack of sales based on seeing these in the sales tanks with other four figure fish. I've always been told by breeders/dealers that it is a viral condition that effects the red skin pigments within the dermis and rises as it "consumes" the hi pigment. It looks and acts like blisters and will seem to "pop" and then skin then kind of melts off. Regardless of what you try, there really is no cure for it and yes, it will continue to affect the other hi plates on the fish. This has nothing to do with an "age" process of the fish.
      Mike

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    8. #8
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      [QUOTE=koiman1950;2645683]
      Quote Originally Posted by GloriaL View Post

      There is a breeder that I have personal knowledge of, from a distributor in Japan who told me that even though a specific oyagoi had a back case of hikui and it was constantly passed on to the offspring, continued to use this specific oyagoi. I had purchased a couple of sansai that developed this dreaded malady within the first year of having them. I also saw MANY other fish from this breeder/oyagoi, that developed it while in possession of the local dealer. Many were put down as they were causing a serious lack of sales based on seeing these in the sales tanks with other four figure fish. I've always been told by breeders/dealers that it is a viral condition that effects the red skin pigments within the dermis and rises as it "consumes" the hi pigment. It looks and acts like blisters and will seem to "pop" and then skin then kind of melts off. Regardless of what you try, there really is no cure for it and yes, it will continue to affect the other hi plates on the fish. This has nothing to do with an "age" process of the fish.
      Thanks Mike! I thought I had heard there was some evidence for a genetic basis.
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    9. #9
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      [QUOTE=koiman1950;2645683]
      Quote Originally Posted by GloriaL View Post

      There is a breeder that I have personal knowledge of, from a distributor in Japan who told me that even though a specific oyagoi had a back case of hikui and it was constantly passed on to the offspring, continued to use this specific oyagoi. I had purchased a couple of sansai that developed this dreaded malady within the first year of having them. I also saw MANY other fish from this breeder/oyagoi, that developed it while in possession of the local dealer. Many were put down as they were causing a serious lack of sales based on seeing these in the sales tanks with other four figure fish. I've always been told by breeders/dealers that it is a viral condition that effects the red skin pigments within the dermis and rises as it "consumes" the hi pigment. It looks and acts like blisters and will seem to "pop" and then skin then kind of melts off. Regardless of what you try, there really is no cure for it and yes, it will continue to affect the other hi plates on the fish. This has nothing to do with an "age" process of the fish.
      So now we know it is not viral, caused by sun, old age and all the other stuff out there.

      I agree with Mike with the passing of the cancer through hereditary. There have been too many breeders that have experienced this.

      The Japanese breeders are not gods and do not have the answers for many of there koi issues. Nor due they use or have laboratory or extensive equipment to study issues with koi. Nor well they spend the money to find out.

    10. #10
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      [QUOTE=GloriaL;2645679]
      Quote Originally Posted by kdh View Post
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27311577[/QUOTE/

      Wow !! Thanks so much! So it sounds like a superficial cancer. Any indication of genetic links?
      It is not uncommon now to hear that some cancers are connected to genetics.

      Like Stephen, I have had my share of hikui. One Koi had it so bad I euthanized it. I have not seen any Koi with hikui for years now.


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    11. #11
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      The article KDH cited is the latest on the subject -- for any who didn't read it, hikui is a type of perivascular cancer. It can be removed surgically but that is only successful in about 25% of cases. I have a doitsu Sanke with hikui; I have scraped it off with a surgical knife, but it just comes back. If it gets really bad, I'd put him down, but it's been pretty stable for several years now and he's otherwise a happy camper.

      It would make sense that there would be a genetic component, just as there seems to be in people.
      Mary

    12. #12
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      edit . forgot this was er...
      Last edited by kevin32; 11-09-2017 at 09:13 PM.

    13. #13
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      my hikui sanke

      my sanke started to show hikui near the tail area about 2014 when he is 5-6 years old
      he does had some more little patch on mid and front beni plates now
      if it is a type of cancer then why hukui only showed in aged koi and not young
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    14. #14
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      Beautiful Sanka.

      5 or 6 is young. Mikes post said his started between three and four. That is young.

      Age is a risk factor for many cancers in humans. Perhaps this is the situation with Hikui.

    15. #15
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      Quote Originally Posted by kdh View Post

      So now we know it is not viral, caused by sun, old age and all the other stuff out there.

      I agree with Mike with the passing of the cancer through hereditary. There have been too many breeders that have experienced this.

      The Japanese breeders are not gods and do not have the answers for many of there koi issues. Nor due they use or have laboratory or extensive equipment to study issues with koi. Nor well they spend the money to find out.
      The article is a first hispathological "description" and does a great job at it. It concludes "All of the data supported a neoplastic process producing perivascular wall tumours." It does not attempt to conclude or allude to what initiated that neoplasm.
      There are numerous "links" we all have heard of as to what causes cancers... genetics, toxins, bacterial, viral etc...
      Last edited by KoiRun; 11-09-2017 at 01:52 PM.
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    16. #16
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      Here is another "latest" (2017) article:
      https://koiorganisationinternational...se-and-remdies

    17. #17
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      Those articles are opinions. Nothing more. I have read all of them. Waddington etc etc..

      There is no evidence of viral issue triggering Hikui. This has all ready been established through other research.
      There is no evidence of age factor either as it is found in young koi as well.?
      There is no evidence that it is due to sun as many koi get it in areas of low sun light. ?
      Bacteria causing cancer. I really doubt that as Hikui is passed on to the next generation as reported from breeders. Why are those bacteria not affecting other koi? And bacteria are not that difficult to find.?
      Toxins. That would not explain how a koi that lives in the same environment comes down with it while none of the other koi are affected. ? These same toxins would have to be found all over the world were hikui is found with koi. And Hikui only showed up on the planet with koi and specifically in the red (hi).

      What triggers Hikui is still unknown and might never be known. Just like cancers in man. It is easy to say viral,age,sun or anything else that we choose to blame for Hikui. And go by our (feelings).

      Just like humans there is no simple answer for causation of cancers.

      There has been very little research done on Hikui as nobody or group wants to spend the money for more investigation of it. The same holds true for humans with particular issues.

      Again this is how I (feel) and I could be wrong. lol

    18. #18
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      Thank you mr kdh
      Bad luck always go to the favorite koi
      M.Nguyen


    19. #19
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      Quote Originally Posted by OCkoiFan View Post
      Thank you mr kdh
      Bad luck always go to the favorite koi
      Ya, I have also read that higher quality beni has a tendency to have higher percentage of Hikui. But really do not know if this can be substantiated.

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      edit. I'm not supposed to post here. forgot this was er..my appology

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