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    Thread: Blood red fins and laying on the bottom...little slime coat either

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      Blood red fins and laying on the bottom...little slime coat either

      So woke up this morning to a sick fish. he was laying on the bottom and he's the most active aggressive fish in the pond. pulled him out and see super red fins...all of them. And her slime coat was way less than adequate. There is some fraying of the tail fin. I netted a couple others and their fins are red as well. Not everyone, just the 4 kohaku's mainly and 1 of the 3 Utsuri's is pretty red in his whites...he's been slowly getting redder.

      We removed a couple fish from the pond a few days ago to give away and noticed nodules on both of their fins, one on the dorsal and the other on the tail fin...no other fish had that but we didn't net every one.

      Ammonia = less than .25...close to 0
      Nitrate and nitrite were close to 0
      pH = 9 (that's normal)
      kH = 142
      gH was off the charts...like 18 drops in my API test kit and it only goes up to 12 drops

      I'm in South Texas and have alkaline water and it's hard due to the limestone aquifers around here.

      We've seen fish jumping lately but not normally flashing.

      We added 4 new fish a week ago AND changed the food at the same time. The new fish look fine...only the older ones are affected.

      How can i treat the high GH an more importantly does this sound like a fungal issue or maybe a bug, like flukes or something worse? I'm immediately going to do a 25% water change and put in some stress coat but could use some suggestions after that.Name:  IMG_9549.jpg
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    2. #2
      cindy's Avatar
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      The concern for me is the 4 new fish. Did you quarantine?

      If you don't have a microscope, i'd the water change and then I'd shotgun treat starting with proform c for 3 days and then on the 3rd day, a fluke treatment.

      if you can sedate, I'd like to know what the gills look like. Little slime coat is a sign of costia.
      Last edited by cindy; 11-04-2017 at 12:52 PM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by cindy View Post
      The concern for me is the 4 new fish. Did you quarantine?

      If you don't have a microscope, i'd the water change and then I'd shotgun treat starting with proform c for 3 days and then on the 3rd day, a fluke treatment.

      if you can sedate, I'd like to know what the gills look like.
      No quarantine tank and can sedate with clove oil only...would that do the trick to look at gills or be too harsh? Chlorine is at 0, btw.

      One thing to consider is I did have nodules on other fish fins before adding new...not sure if that matters a lot because this red and laying on bottom is not related to fin rot I suspect.

      I'm familiar with fluke treatment but what does proform C treat?

      Thank you for your assistance.

      Steve

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      Reason I suspect costia is the lack of slime coat and the fish looks like it is starting to dehydrate. Sunken eyes. Proform will treat fungus, trichodina, chilodinella, costia and fungus. Everything except flukes, anchor worm and lice.

      You say chlorine is 0, you have city water so you have chloramines which is chlorine and ammonia, a binder like cloram-x is needed.

      From the er thread: A microscope is needed to view these:

      Ichthyobodo Necatrix - Costia----------300X-400X:

      Costia reproduces quickly when conditions are right. Reproduction is by binary fission. The symptoms are varied. Lethargic, disoriented, dark pigmentation, clamped fins, reddening at the base of the dorsal, thin slime coat or sandpaper like feel are all indicators. More advanced cases will produce a notch above the mouth and the eyes will become sunken. Infections of costia commonly occur around the base of the dorsal fin.

      Under the microscope Costia looks somewhat teardrop shaped and moves with the irregularity of bumper cars at the county fair. Cell streams are sometimes mistaken for costia. Cell streams all move in the same direction. They vary in speed but are not to be mistaken for costia.

      Costia can be eradicated by applying heat but it takes several days. At 87*F. Costia is immobilized and can no longer reproduce. Unfortunately most pond settings do not allow for heat to be applied to this degree. For those situations either FMG or FMC will work well. Prior to dosing a 25 to 50% water change is advised to reduce the organics and improve performance of the chemical. I would advise using 37% formaldehyde mixed with malachite green at a rate of one gallon formaldehyde and 15 grams of malachite green. The dosage for costia is100ml per 1000 gallons. Weaker products such as ProformC require 150ml per 1000 gallons. Two dosages about 18 hours apart seems to be effective but with higher organics present a third dose may be required.

      FMG is made from readily available stock ingredients. But beware! This is not something to take lightly. Neither chemical are particularly friendly to your eyes, nose, mouth or skin. The formula is listed below. Formaldehyde will read as ammonia during the first 24 hours of treatment.

      FMG: To one gallon of 37% formaldehyde, add 15 grams of Malachite Green. That's it. Cover it securely and shake it to dissolve the MG powder. Wear protective eyewear. a breathing mask and gloves. Malachite Green migrates easily in even the slightest bit of air movement so be careful.

      FMC: An older formula developed in 1978. To one gallon of 37% formaldehyde, add 12 grams of malachite green and 12 grams of methylene blue. This is particularly effective against Ich. Again, be careful with these materials none of them are "exactly" safe.
      My opinions in ER and on this forum are mine only. Use my advice at your own discretion.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."


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      I use oil of cloves but if you don't have a scope, I wouldn't sedate just to look at the gills.
      My opinions in ER and on this forum are mine only. Use my advice at your own discretion.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."


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      Quote Originally Posted by Stevectx View Post
      No quarantine tank and can sedate with clove oil only...would that do the trick to look at gills or be too harsh? Chlorine is at 0, btw.

      One thing to consider is I did have nodules on other fish fins before adding new...not sure if that matters a lot because this red and laying on bottom is not related to fin rot I suspect.

      I'm familiar with fluke treatment but what does proform C treat?

      Thank you for your assistance.

      Steve
      Ichthyophthirius (Ich), Chilodonella, Costia, Oodinium, Trichodina and fungal infections

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      Wow, I didn’t know fish could dehydrate, that’s interesting. My pond supply place does not carry Proform C but he does carry Microbe-lift broad spectrum disease treatment with Malachite Green and Formalin. He said it’s not as harsh on the beneficial bacteria.

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      Quote Originally Posted by cindy View Post
      The concern for me is the 4 new fish. Did you quarantine?

      If you don't have a microscope, i'd the water change and then I'd shotgun treat starting with proform c for 3 days and then on the 3rd day, a fluke treatment.

      if you can sedate, I'd like to know what the gills look like. Little slime coat is a sign of costia.
      Could you please show me the article that says this!

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      Quote Originally Posted by Stevectx View Post
      Wow, I didn’t know fish could dehydrate, that’s interesting. My pond supply place does not carry Proform C but he does carry Microbe-lift broad spectrum disease treatment with Malachite Green and Formalin. He said it’s not as harsh on the beneficial bacteria.
      I've never used any bacteria products but have used the Microbe Lift Broad Spectrum and had good success with it
      in combination with Fluke-M. The Broad Spectrum is effective but won't kill flukes, hence the combined treatment of
      fluke meds on the 3rd dose of the Broad Spectrum.
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      Know somebody around that can scrape and scope?

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      Cindy and Steve have given you good advice regarding treatment, and the Microbe-lift broad spectrum disease treatment is nearly identical to Proform C.

      Regarding the GH, although the chart in the API instruction book only goes up to 12 drops, each drop is equal to 1 German degree of hardness (dH) or 17.85 ppm, so 18 drops would be 18 degrees or more than 303 ppm and not more than 321 ppm. There is no practical way to reduce GH. If you have a water softener for your house, you could use about 2/3 water that goes through the softener and 1/3 water that does not go through the softener to bring the GH down to about 107 ppm, but unless you have show-quality koi, it is not worth the effort. The only ill effect of high GH is that the koi are more likely to develop shimi (black speckles on the red markings). This is only a cosmetic problem, and hot a health concern. Removing the calcium could allow the pH to go even higher than it is, so I would just accept that the GH is high.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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      Quote Originally Posted by Stevectx View Post
      Wow, I didnt know fish could dehydrate, thats interesting. My pond supply place does not carry Proform C but he does carry Microbe-lift broad spectrum disease treatment with Malachite Green and Formalin. He said its not as harsh on the beneficial bacteria.
      When a fish loses its ability to regulate its internal water pressure, it can dehydrate.
      My opinions in ER and on this forum are mine only. Use my advice at your own discretion.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."


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      cindy's Avatar
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      What's your water temperature? "MICROBE-LIFT/BSDT is the ONLY malachite green and formalin treatment that can be used in water temperatures as low as 50F, thus allowing treatment in early Spring and late Fall."
      My opinions in ER and on this forum are mine only. Use my advice at your own discretion.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."


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      Quote Originally Posted by cindy View Post
      What's your water temperature? "MICROBE-LIFT/BSDT is the ONLY malachite green and formalin treatment that can be used in water temperatures as low as 50F, thus allowing treatment in early Spring and late Fall."
      Water temp was 74 Degrees this morning. So I think we're good there.

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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      I've never used any bacteria products but have used the Microbe Lift Broad Spectrum and had good success with it
      in combination with Fluke-M. The Broad Spectrum is effective but won't kill flukes, hence the combined treatment of
      fluke meds on the 3rd dose of the Broad Spectrum.
      So Treated with the Broad Spectrum at about noon today. Now (6 hours later) I was just sitting out there and noticed a couple fish flashing a lot. Would that be because the BSDT is killing parasites and causing irritation in the fish? I don't think there is cause for concern if misdiagnosing costia as opposed to flukes...just looking for confirmation I suppose.

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      Dumb question, as you are treating with some pretty hard hitting chemicals, do you know the volume of the pond or are you guessing? Many people have used the formulas for determining pond volume of length times width times depth time 7.48 to get the volume, but if the pond has walls that are not straight down, the formula over estimates the volume, and if the pond has shelves, then it is again over estimating. Some have found the volume to be off by almost double, and in that case the treatment could be fatal. Some have used the product at up to about 1.25 times the manufacturer's recommended dosage, but much over that I would be worried. If your pond was not filled with a meter in line, or a means of determining the volume by salt or similar, then I would worry.

      As the parasites are being attacked by the BSDT, they will try to burrow in to get away from the chemicals. This causes flashing, breaching, and other weird swimming behaviors. If you know the volume is correct, do not stop the treatment because of it.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Stevectx View Post
      So Treated with the Broad Spectrum at about noon today. Now (6 hours later) I was just sitting out there and noticed a couple fish flashing a lot. Would that be because the BSDT is killing parasites and causing irritation in the fish? I don't think there is cause for concern if misdiagnosing costia as opposed to flukes...just looking for confirmation I suppose.
      As long as you're sure of your ponds volume and know the amount you treated with is correct, it's very probable that is what's causing the flashing.
      I wouldn't be overly concerned as long as there's not more distress.
      And no concern at all between diagnosing costia as opposed to flukes. When I do a shotgun treatment I usually do the 3 treatments of Broad Spectrum (1 every
      other day with a 10-20% water change between treatments) and with the 3rd Broad Spectrum treatment I also add Fluke-M (or Prazi would be used the same way)
      and leave both for 7 days before doing another water change. If I scope and see flukes after that I treat a second time with only Fluke-M.

      I had a reason to bring one of my fish to a vet after treating like this and he scoped the fish and took 4 different scrapings and said he found one fluke
      and said whatever I was doing to control parasites was working well. That made me feel better.



      (sorry, xposted with Rich)
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      Quote Originally Posted by RickF View Post
      Cindy and Steve have given you good advice regarding treatment, and the Microbe-lift broad spectrum disease treatment is nearly identical to Proform C.

      Regarding the GH, although the chart in the API instruction book only goes up to 12 drops, each drop is equal to 1 German degree of hardness (dH) or 17.85 ppm, so 18 drops would be 18 degrees or more than 303 ppm and not more than 321 ppm. There is no practical way to reduce GH. If you have a water softener for your house, you could use about 2/3 water that goes through the softener and 1/3 water that does not go through the softener to bring the GH down to about 107 ppm, but unless you have show-quality koi, it is not worth the effort. The only ill effect of high GH is that the koi are more likely to develop shimi (black speckles on the red markings). This is only a cosmetic problem, and hot a health concern. Removing the calcium could allow the pH to go even higher than it is, so I would just accept that the GH is high.
      So, Rick, I'm curious, with all these parameters/readings why would Ph be 9.0? Of course the OP didn't mention what he uses to test with, liquid or strips but I do what you suggested with the water softener and it really works well. My Ph is very consistent at around 8.2-8.4 and my Kh is very steady between 120-140.
      Mike

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      Quote Originally Posted by koiman1950 View Post
      So, Rick, I'm curious, with all these parameters/readings why would Ph be 9.0? Of course the OP didn't mention what he uses to test with, liquid or strips but I do what you suggested with the water softener and it really works well. My Ph is very consistent at around 8.2-8.4 and my Kh is very steady between 120-140.
      Without knowing what is in the source water, it is difficult to say why the pH is 9. Usually when we see a naturally high GH and KH, they are due to the water being in contact with limestone, and the pH should be 8.3 after any carbon dioxide is driven out of the water, but there can be other naturally occurring buffers with different pH values. If the majority of the GH is due to magnesium carbonate rather than calcium carbonate, the pH can be in the 9 to 11 range, depending on the ratio of other positively charged ions in the water. If it is a borate buffer system, the pH would be about 9.1. If the water has a high salinity concentration, the pH can be high. I have heard from many ponders in Australia who report naturally high GH and KH with a stable pH in the 9.0 range, but I do not know what is in their water. Arid areas tend to be more likely to have high pH.

      As you suggested, though, it could just be the accuracy of the pH reading. With many pH test kits, it is difficult to tell the difference between 8.3 and 9.0.

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      Quote Originally Posted by RickF View Post
      Without knowing what is in the source water, it is difficult to say why the pH is 9. Usually when we see a naturally high GH and KH, they are due to the water being in contact with limestone, and the pH should be 8.3 after any carbon dioxide is driven out of the water, but there can be other naturally occurring buffers with different pH values. If the majority of the GH is due to magnesium carbonate rather than calcium carbonate, the pH can be in the 9 to 11 range, depending on the ratio of other positively charged ions in the water. If it is a borate buffer system, the pH would be about 9.1. If the water has a high salinity concentration, the pH can be high. I have heard from many ponders in Australia who report naturally high GH and KH with a stable pH in the 9.0 range, but I do not know what is in their water. Arid areas tend to be more likely to have high pH.

      As you suggested, though, it could just be the accuracy of the pH reading. With many pH test kits, it is difficult to tell the difference between 8.3 and 9.0.

      Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
      I'm in South-Central Texas and our water source is in contact with limestone as stated in the OP. I use drops to get a range of the pH and have test strips also...the test strips tend to have a little lower result (like ~8.3) and the drops indicate somewhere close to 9. Regardless it's normal for ponders around here to have hard and very alkaline water.

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