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    Thread: A Sad Day for the WWKC and the koiphen forum

    1. #21
      icu2's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by kntry View Post
      I tried on both links and it says I do not have sufficient privileges to open that link.
      To access the meeting thread you have to be a member of Worldwide Koi Club. Less than $2.50/mo ($29/yr)!

      http://www.worldwidekoiclub.org/#front-page-4
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    2. #22
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      I guess some folks just don't understand what's going on here. Y'all are still talking about the best way to shoe a horse when everyone else is driving past ya. Reminiscing about days past and shaming folks into donations ain't gonna do squat. What's the plan for this place? Seriously, what is going to change? Changing nothing and expecting a different result is getting exactly what ya got- declining membership and declining participation.

      As for 'paying it forward'- give me a break... If you have to ask someone to donate than they really don't want to donate in the first place. I belong to an appliance repair forum that has a free as well as paid membership. The paid membership gives access to service bulletins and tech sheets, and we technicians discuss all aspects of appliantology. I gladly pay my $150 yearly dues because I find value. If ya can't get $29 a year for this place, what is that saying about the value it is offering? And then, one must ask why are members not participating? I'll tell ya why- because the 'I've been doing this for forty years' guy will beat ya up and tell you why you are doing wrong. Look what y'all did to Kevin... here you have an enthusiastic member that wears his heart on his sleeve and posts about anything, and ya beat him up! People see this.... and they don't dare post in fear of getting ridiculed.

      But you guys keep chirping along, reminiscing about the good ol days and bashing other forums that saw the light way before you do. The rest of us will be on facebook communicating with hobbyists around the world, following journalists, following breeders, following dealers, and having a grand ol time...

      And Mike, it's this type of crap that people get turned off, your bragging about yourself and then beating up members. "... I find it quite disturbing that, besides myself (a former President, BOD member and mod) that only one other member has posted an opinion or made a suggestion about the bylaw changes...it sure tells me not many members really seem to care as long as somebody else is running the ship!" Good observation there bud. And way to sell it!
      Tim can always be reached at 850-380-7824 or timnye850@gmail.com

    3. #23
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      Quote Originally Posted by Appliance Guy View Post
      I guess some folks just don't understand what's going on here. Y'all are still talking about the best way to shoe a horse when everyone else is driving past ya. Reminiscing about days past and shaming folks into donations ain't gonna do squat. What's the plan for this place? Seriously, what is going to change? Changing nothing and expecting a different result is getting exactly what ya got- declining membership and declining participation.

      As for 'paying it forward'- give me a break... If you have to ask someone to donate than they really don't want to donate in the first place. I belong to an appliance repair forum that has a free as well as paid membership. The paid membership gives access to service bulletins and tech sheets, and we technicians discuss all aspects of appliantology. I gladly pay my $150 yearly dues because I find value. If ya can't get $29 a year for this place, what is that saying about the value it is offering? And then, one must ask why are members not participating? I'll tell ya why- because the 'I've been doing this for forty years' guy will beat ya up and tell you why you are doing wrong. Look what y'all did to Kevin... here you have an enthusiastic member that wears his heart on his sleeve and posts about anything, and ya beat him up! People see this.... and they don't dare post in fear of getting ridiculed.

      But you guys keep chirping along, reminiscing about the good ol days and bashing other forums that saw the light way before you do. The rest of us will be on facebook communicating with hobbyists around the world, following journalists, following breeders, following dealers, and having a grand ol time...

      And Mike, it's this type of crap that people get turned off, your bragging about yourself and then beating up members. "... I find it quite disturbing that, besides myself (a former President, BOD member and mod) that only one other member has posted an opinion or made a suggestion about the bylaw changes...it sure tells me not many members really seem to care as long as somebody else is running the ship!" Good observation there bud. And way to sell it!
      Hi Tim. Do you have a link to the appliantology forum? I think I want to join. Our toaster went bad and I think it will cost more than $150 to get it fixed from the repairman. Thanks!

    4. #24
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      Quote Originally Posted by Appliance Guy View Post
      I guess some folks just don't understand what's going on here. Y'all are still talking about the best way to shoe a horse when everyone else is driving past ya. Reminiscing about days past and shaming folks into donations ain't gonna do squat. What's the plan for this place? Seriously, what is going to change? Changing nothing and expecting a different result is getting exactly what ya got- declining membership and declining participation.

      As for 'paying it forward'- give me a break... If you have to ask someone to donate than they really don't want to donate in the first place. I belong to an appliance repair forum that has a free as well as paid membership. The paid membership gives access to service bulletins and tech sheets, and we technicians discuss all aspects of appliantology. I gladly pay my $150 yearly dues because I find value. If ya can't get $29 a year for this place, what is that saying about the value it is offering? And then, one must ask why are members not participating? I'll tell ya why- because the 'I've been doing this for forty years' guy will beat ya up and tell you why you are doing wrong. Look what y'all did to Kevin... here you have an enthusiastic member that wears his heart on his sleeve and posts about anything, and ya beat him up! People see this.... and they don't dare post in fear of getting ridiculed.

      But you guys keep chirping along, reminiscing about the good ol days and bashing other forums that saw the light way before you do. The rest of us will be on facebook communicating with hobbyists around the world, following journalists, following breeders, following dealers, and having a grand ol time...

      And Mike, it's this type of crap that people get turned off, your bragging about yourself and then beating up members. "... I find it quite disturbing that, besides myself (a former President, BOD member and mod) that only one other member has posted an opinion or made a suggestion about the bylaw changes...it sure tells me not many members really seem to care as long as somebody else is running the ship!" Good observation there bud. And way to sell it!
      are you saying this kevin or another?

      i do talk about everything and anyone that wants to talk I'm good. i get a hard time sometimes but i don't really care that much.

      i can't say much else as i will get a spanking for it.

      i have helped a member in need and this forum is something I appreciate. i don't think we are begging for to much in support on memberships but more just a reminder to some. maybe I'm wrong idk
      Last edited by kevin32; 4 Weeks Ago at 12:17 AM.

    5. #25
      icu2's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Appliance Guy View Post
      I guess some folks just don't understand what's going on here. Y'all are still talking about the best way to shoe a horse when everyone else is driving past ya. Reminiscing about days past and shaming folks into donations ain't gonna do squat. What's the plan for this place? Seriously, what is going to change? Changing nothing and expecting a different result is getting exactly what ya got- declining membership and declining participation.

      As for 'paying it forward'- give me a break... If you have to ask someone to donate than they really don't want to donate in the first place. I belong to an appliance repair forum that has a free as well as paid membership. The paid membership gives access to service bulletins and tech sheets, and we technicians discuss all aspects of appliantology. I gladly pay my $150 yearly dues because I find value. If ya can't get $29 a year for this place, what is that saying about the value it is offering? And then, one must ask why are members not participating? I'll tell ya why- because the 'I've been doing this for forty years' guy will beat ya up and tell you why you are doing wrong. Look what y'all did to Kevin... here you have an enthusiastic member that wears his heart on his sleeve and posts about anything, and ya beat him up! People see this.... and they don't dare post in fear of getting ridiculed.

      But you guys keep chirping along, reminiscing about the good ol days and bashing other forums that saw the light way before you do. The rest of us will be on facebook communicating with hobbyists around the world, following journalists, following breeders, following dealers, and having a grand ol time...

      And Mike, it's this type of crap that people get turned off, your bragging about yourself and then beating up members. "... I find it quite disturbing that, besides myself (a former President, BOD member and mod) that only one other member has posted an opinion or made a suggestion about the bylaw changes...it sure tells me not many members really seem to care as long as somebody else is running the ship!" Good observation there bud. And way to sell it!
      Fun facts:

      Total WWKC Members 10/2015: 164
      Total WWKC Members 10/2016: 155
      Total WWKC Members 10/2017: 180

      It's always good to know actual facts before guessing. I love doomsday outlooks from people that aren't Members
      because they see no "value" in joining but are happy to use the forum.
      Thank you to all who have joined the WWKC and help support our forum!
      --Steve
      Find more about Weather in Poulsbo, WA

      "It is far better to be alone, than to be in bad company." --George Washington

    6. #26
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      I belonged to a motorhome forum for several years. Anyone can read the forum, but only members can ask questions, have access to the search function, and use the library of motorhome repair manuals donated by current/past members. There are real specific benefits to be a member (primarily asking questions). Money is tight, it is easier to justify expense if there are easily identified concrete benefits. The search option and other links on the top line of this forum has similar value I think.

      Advertisement provided enough income to pay for most of the cost of the forum. A banner ad provided a hypertext to Amazon, and for each hit (even by those with Amazon accounts) provided good income for the club. Specific ad space was also provided on each page and additional income was obtained. There are some advertisement here, but more would not be a distraction.

      Ego problems there too sometimes, especially when $500k motorhome people were mixing with $40k folks, but mostly the raging egos were just ignored. Membership fees to the club also continued to decline, but not surprising considering the newest motorhome is now 8 years old and the bulk are twice that age. I agree membership in all clubs are declining for a variety of reasons, but as long as people are a few willing to contribute time for administration of the forum, I don't think money for operation should be a problem if the forum is viewed as a source of advertising income. Hits to Amazon and other suppliers produce enough funds to continue the motorhome club. Each hit was only a fraction of a penny, but thousands of those add up.

    7. #27
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      Quote Originally Posted by Appliance Guy View Post
      I guess some folks just don't understand what's going on here. Y'all are still talking about the best way to shoe a horse when everyone else is driving past ya. Reminiscing about days past and shaming folks into donations ain't gonna do squat. What's the plan for this place? Seriously, what is going to change? Changing nothing and expecting a different result is getting exactly what ya got- declining membership and declining participation.

      As for 'paying it forward'- give me a break... If you have to ask someone to donate than they really don't want to donate in the first place. I belong to an appliance repair forum that has a free as well as paid membership. The paid membership gives access to service bulletins and tech sheets, and we technicians discuss all aspects of appliantology. I gladly pay my $150 yearly dues because I find value. If ya can't get $29 a year for this place, what is that saying about the value it is offering? And then, one must ask why are members not participating? I'll tell ya why- because the 'I've been doing this for forty years' guy will beat ya up and tell you why you are doing wrong. Look what y'all did to Kevin... here you have an enthusiastic member that wears his heart on his sleeve and posts about anything, and ya beat him up! People see this.... and they don't dare post in fear of getting ridiculed.

      But you guys keep chirping along, reminiscing about the good ol days and bashing other forums that saw the light way before you do. The rest of us will be on facebook communicating with hobbyists around the world, following journalists, following breeders, following dealers, and having a grand ol time...

      And Mike, it's this type of crap that people get turned off, your bragging about yourself and then beating up members. "... I find it quite disturbing that, besides myself (a former President, BOD member and mod) that only one other member has posted an opinion or made a suggestion about the bylaw changes...it sure tells me not many members really seem to care as long as somebody else is running the ship!" Good observation there bud. And way to sell it!
      Your membership status says a lot more than your diatribe here does. Yet, you continue to post as a right that is afforded you along with many others by the same club you badmouth. Wow, maybe appliances suit you better, not sure. I'm not bragging about myself, just providing a bit of background, nothing more. And, yes, as this is a hobby organization and not one built on a business/profession of the individual members to gain insight into service improvement for professional gain, "paying it forward" probably isn't something you consider important. Too bad as you don't know what you're missing.

      I find the threads Stephen has brought back up is more fun than anything but also allows others to learn about what has gone on in the past. It's not about whether Westinghouse is better than Maytag, but that doesn't float my boat. Koi and being a member here and doing what I can to provide insight and assistance to others to help build a pond they can be proud of, well, then I feel I've done my due diligence as a member here. BTW, when was the last time you posted anything of value to a fellow member? You used to, but I don't see it much anymore. Too bad.
      Oh, and WHO is drivin past us? The rest have fallen by the wayside as Stephen so aptly posted earlier. Just saying'.
      Last edited by koiman1950; 4 Weeks Ago at 01:28 AM.
      Mike

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    8. #28
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      I install appliances too but I know fixing appliances pays more for sure. Wonder why can’t afford $29 bucks a year. Go koiphener for life brother
      M.Nguyen


    9. #29
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      Quote Originally Posted by OCkoiFan View Post
      I install appliances too but I know fixing appliances pays more for sure. Wonder why can’t afford $29 bucks a year. Go koiphener for life brother
      wolf! or is it sub zero

    10. #30
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      Quote Originally Posted by kevin32 View Post
      wolf! or is it sub zero
      Certified subzero and wolf but I do any brands on US market, Kev
      M.Nguyen


    11. #31
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      Quote Originally Posted by OCkoiFan View Post
      Certified subzero and wolf but I do any brands on US market, Kev
      nice. you go girl. j/k

    12. #32
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      Thank you to all who have attended the meeting so far!
      Number attending is higher than I can remember in a long time... currently 47!
      --Steve
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      "It is far better to be alone, than to be in bad company." --George Washington

    13. #33
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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      Fun facts:

      Total WWKC Members 10/2015: 164
      Total WWKC Members 10/2016: 155
      Total WWKC Members 10/2017: 180

      It's always good to know actual facts before guessing. I love doomsday outlooks from people that aren't Members
      because they see no "value" in joining but are happy to use the forum.
      Thank you to all who have joined the WWKC and help support our forum!
      Member counts went up with the drives and people paying for others, and that is great. It however does not address the elephant in the room that Tim mentioned, our participation being way down. The number of individual users posting has been on a steady decline. There were fewer people posting last year than when the site was still ramping up in 2005. This year there is a chance the site will not even hit 1000 individual users posting, meaning it may only reach roughly 2/3rd of our peak participation year. Members and advertisers keep the site sustainable for now, but if numbers continue to drop with participation so will the sustainability.
      Attached Images Attached Images  



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    14. #34
      icu2's Avatar
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      Cool statistic!

      But honestly I'm not sure the number of people posting is a great indication of the actual people
      viewing the forum. Harsh reality is advertisers are interested in the number of "eyeballs" which is ultimately
      what makes it worthwhile to pony up advertising dollars and not necessarily how much posting traffic happens
      per year.
      The Koiphen forum is the Club's meeting place. We invite guests to join us here and share much of the information with
      the world for free. I've only been treasurer for a couple of years but iirc we've had positive cash flow in all but one month.
      I think many landed koi clubs struggle to have enough money to operate and do the things they'd like to do. I wonder how
      many others can also say they have had 23 out of 24 months making more than they spend?

      I'm not saying it's not a struggle or that we may not be in for even tougher times ahead, but I think we've always
      encouraged all Members to share their ideas of how to make things better. Not all are implemented but all are appreciated.
      We really can't do anything about the number of other media options out there for people to visit... we're bound to have
      less traffic than before.
      But if we want to look at statistics that I think might be more relevant I stumbled across an interesting one and it was a
      reference to unique web visitors, i.e. "eyeballs";
      In 2012 there was a post that indicated "Koiphen has averaged over 7800 different visitors a month over the last year..."
      For comparison so far in 2017 Koiphen averages over 179,000 different visitors a month.

      We're always interested in hearing ideas to make our meeting place better!
      --Steve
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      "It is far better to be alone, than to be in bad company." --George Washington

    15. #35
      hp is online now Senior Member
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      I personally think it's really good to be reminded sometimes on donation/membership. Often in life, we all use things/services but not many people remember/understand that every business or nonprofit organization requires funding and supports to maintain. So, it's good to be reminded. Koi is our hobby and we come here to learn, share, and support each other. I have learn a lot from here. I am personally and I am sure many people in here are happy to support the forum and don't question the $29 price tag for annual membership.

      hp.

    16. #36
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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      Cool statistic!

      But honestly I'm not sure the number of people posting is a great indication of the actual people
      viewing the forum. Harsh reality is advertisers are interested in the number of "eyeballs" which is ultimately
      what makes it worthwhile to pony up advertising dollars and not necessarily how much posting traffic happens
      per year.
      Views are great, but they do not create new content and keep the forum fresh. As participation drops, this becomes more of a library than an active forum. If the site has 1.7 million unique visitors a year and 1000 people participating, one should be asking why can't we get more to participate. If you ran a store and had 1.7 million people come through the door and only 1000 people buy something would you still carry a "well at least they came" view point or wonder why 1.699M people didn't find a single thing.



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    17. #37
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      I hesitate to post on this thread...it seems a bit touchy on both sides.
      I think, for the most part, everyone has a valid point to some degree, whether its optimistic or pessimistic.
      I also think by design that this is a social forum with a great construction side. Its tough because I dont think that a koi forum can survive...obviously look at the long list of defunct sites. I just don't think a koi forum is a sustainable model. We should be learning from all of the defunct sites instead of saying we are the best because we are still alive.
      Its the inherent nature of the hobbyist...we all reach a glass ceiling where we cannot invest anymore time or money in the hobby at which point we slow down with buying fish, posting, building, giving advice, etc. This is when we start to sit back silently, browse threads, look at pictures, make fun of friends, wait for dealers to go to Japan and post pics.
      On the topic of koi experts...its a double edged sword. Most experts are good at arguing and not really teaching. They have huge egos and are long winded. Beyond tooting their own horns, they tend to be somewhat vague and ambiguous so that they are never really wrong. But they provide insight and experience. Its also a one way street for them, what do they get for correcting people all the time or explaining the same thing year after year? I wasn't around for a lot of the experts...I have read some of JRs stuff on KB and Waddy on FB. Both seem to be egomaniacs. The only expert I miss really is Junichi. I really liked him.
      As far as the WWKC...I feel that I've given a lot to this site in my prime koi years. I've posted everything that I've done - pond build, fish buys, meeting different koi people, koi shows, lizards, bugs....I hope that someone learned something from my many mistakes and my accidental genius moments.
      .
      -Rain

      :I CAN'T BRING THIS SHIP INTO TRTUGA ALL BY ME ONESIES, SAVVY?:

    18. #38
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      As a new set of “eyes” , I want to offer my perspective. I know I don’t post much at all. I am new to the hobby and don’t feel I have much to offer at this point. I had hoped to get my pond started this year and appreciate all of the advice. It is invaluable. Unfortunately, we didn’t get it even started which probably has more to do with putting 300+ blocks in place, which I just can’t do. If I plan, which it seems I am not very good at-lol, the kids will come and help. I have to get it done next year, the koi are getting to large for the small pond they are in. But, once I get started I plan to share my progress with everyone. For me, the construction and filtration forum is what drew me here and what I continue to look through to get ideas. I visit the forum daily and feel like I am getting to know everyone better. I guess I need to push myself to get more involved, I never have been one to post much online. All one would have to do is look at my facebook account and you would see! What can be done to improve the site...I am not sure. Perhaps we need to look through the eyes those in their 20’s. While I am perfectly happy with this type of forum, they are much more interactive. Could Snapchat be used? What about Pinterest, Instagram, or Facebook Live - could they be used to supplement the site? These are the “places” where my kids who are in the 20’s go. I think we need to think out of the box. The forum needs to survive - there is just to much information here to lose.

    19. #39
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      Quote Originally Posted by rainblood View Post
      I hesitate to post on this thread...it seems a bit touchy on both sides.
      I think, for the most part, everyone has a valid point to some degree, whether its optimistic or pessimistic.
      I also think by design that this is a social forum with a great construction side. Its tough because I dont think that a koi forum can survive...obviously look at the long list of defunct sites. I just don't think a koi forum is a sustainable model. We should be learning from all of the defunct sites instead of saying we are the best because we are still alive.
      Its the inherent nature of the hobbyist...we all reach a glass ceiling where we cannot invest anymore time or money in the hobby at which point we slow down with buying fish, posting, building, giving advice, etc. This is when we start to sit back silently, browse threads, look at pictures, make fun of friends, wait for dealers to go to Japan and post pics.
      On the topic of koi experts...its a double edged sword. Most experts are good at arguing and not really teaching. They have huge egos and are long winded. Beyond tooting their own horns, they tend to be somewhat vague and ambiguous so that they are never really wrong. But they provide insight and experience. Its also a one way street for them, what do they get for correcting people all the time or explaining the same thing year after year? I wasn't around for a lot of the experts...I have read some of JRs stuff on KB and Waddy on FB. Both seem to be egomaniacs. The only expert I miss really is Junichi. I really liked him.
      As far as the WWKC...I feel that I've given a lot to this site in my prime koi years. I've posted everything that I've done - pond build, fish buys, meeting different koi people, koi shows, lizards, bugs....I hope that someone learned something from my many mistakes and my accidental genius moments.
      .
      Great post.

      I think knowing that would be good as well but personally I've only really been involved with Koiphen. I visited others but never really how
      they worked. How were they funded? It seemed like many are started by an individual or two and then the whole thing relies on those
      persons to pay for the server and support to run it. Then if advertising revenue doesn't support it and they gets tired of paying,
      it goes under. Is that how it worked? I'd be really interested to know.

      When it really comes down to it, no matter how many contribute or how many visit... it needs to be able to pay for itself. So far Koiphen
      has been able to do that while some others weren't.
      --Steve
      Find more about Weather in Poulsbo, WA

      "It is far better to be alone, than to be in bad company." --George Washington

    20. #40
      icu2's Avatar
      icu2 is online now Administrator ~ WWKC Treasurer
      is usually here but if not I'm
      probably off flying
       
      Feeling:
      Piratey
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2007
      Location
      Poulsbo, WA
      Posts
      23,085
      Quote Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post
      I belonged to a motorhome forum for several years. Anyone can read the forum, but only members can ask questions, have access to the search function, and use the library of motorhome repair manuals donated by current/past members. There are real specific benefits to be a member (primarily asking questions). Money is tight, it is easier to justify expense if there are easily identified concrete benefits. The search option and other links on the top line of this forum has similar value I think.

      Advertisement provided enough income to pay for most of the cost of the forum. A banner ad provided a hypertext to Amazon, and for each hit (even by those with Amazon accounts) provided good income for the club. Specific ad space was also provided on each page and additional income was obtained. There are some advertisement here, but more would not be a distraction.

      Ego problems there too sometimes, especially when $500k motorhome people were mixing with $40k folks, but mostly the raging egos were just ignored. Membership fees to the club also continued to decline, but not surprising considering the newest motorhome is now 8 years old and the bulk are twice that age. I agree membership in all clubs are declining for a variety of reasons, but as long as people are a few willing to contribute time for administration of the forum, I don't think money for operation should be a problem if the forum is viewed as a source of advertising income. Hits to Amazon and other suppliers produce enough funds to continue the motorhome club. Each hit was only a fraction of a penny, but thousands of those add up.
      Another great post and while we're sort of brainstorming here I just wanted to point out that one limitation
      we have as a tax exempt club is the amount we can receive from a non-member. At this point we're not even
      close to the max but the IRS puts a cap on the percentage we can make from outside sources. I'll have to go
      back and look to see what it is, but just wanted to toss that out there too.

      It's certainly worth looking at other options of sources though.

      Edit: The limit changed since the last time I read it and now it's limited to $1000/yr - or we have to pay tax on it and
      file more forms.

      Even though an organization is recognized as tax exempt, it still may be liable for tax on its unrelated business taxable income.
      An exempt organization that has $1,000 or more gross income from an unrelated business must file Form 990-T, Exempt Organization
      Business Income Tax Return.
      --Steve
      Find more about Weather in Poulsbo, WA

      "It is far better to be alone, than to be in bad company." --George Washington

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