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    Thread: Circling Koi @ Surface

    1. #1
      JNettles is offline Junior Member
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      Circling Koi @ Surface

      Hello,

      First time posting but occasional lurker. I have a koi, about 10", that is circling at the surface (its right side down, left side up), and seems to be gasping for air. Maybe has some look scales but can't really tell for sure.

      My 2,200 gallon pond water readings are Ammonia 0; Nitrite 0; Nitrate 0; PH 8.2; GH 3 to 4; KH 7; temp about 82*.

      I use a bead filter and an auxiliary aerator in addition to the inflow spout (formal pond). The readings have been steady for a couple of months. I added 0.5 cups of PH yesterday and 0.5 cups Nite-Out today. I also added 1 cup baking soda yesterday. I do a partial water change every 3 days of about 100 gallons.

      Yesterday, the fish (7 total, totaling maybe 65"-70" inches for all combined) started eating less and just a little today. Now today, on eof the larger ones is not looking great.

      Any suggestions? Thanks, John

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    2. #2
      icu2's Avatar
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      Welcome John thanks for joining us! Sorry for the circumstances though...
      And just so you know, all new posters are moderated at the beginning, so that's why your post didn't show up initially,
      but you're good now.

      You said the readings have been steady for a couple of months... is this a new pond? Were the numbers off before?
      I'm not sure what PH is and if you have picture of the pond and fish, sometimes that can help a lot. Is the water temp 82*?
      --Steve



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    3. #3
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      Start doing a water change. Circling can be a sign on toxins in the water. Use a binder for the chloramines.

    4. #4
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      Quote Originally Posted by JNettles View Post
      Hello,

      First time posting but occasional lurker. I have a koi, about 10", that is circling at the surface (its right side down, left side up), and seems to be gasping for air. Maybe has some look scales but can't really tell for sure.

      My 2,200 gallon pond water readings are Ammonia 0; Nitrite 0; Nitrate 0; PH 8.2; GH 3 to 4; KH 7; temp about 82*.

      I use a bead filter and an auxiliary aerator in addition to the inflow spout (formal pond). The readings have been steady for a couple of months. I added 0.5 cups of PH yesterday and 0.5 cups Nite-Out today. I also added 1 cup baking soda yesterday. I do a partial water change every 3 days of about 100 gallons.

      Yesterday, the fish (7 total, totaling maybe 65"-70" inches for all combined) started eating less and just a little today. Now today, on eof the larger ones is not looking great.

      Any suggestions? Thanks, John
      Other than the baking soda, which would help stabilize the Ph, why did you find it necessary to add the other ingredients? I assume you meant to type "Ph down"?!? What test kits/strips are you using? I'm always suspicious when people claim to have 0 readings for everything. It's not usually feasible and the average ponder doesn't have enough filtration to achieve these readings.
      Mike

      check out our website at: http://www.pond-life.net




      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

    5. #5
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      Thanks for the replies. I will try to answer all the questions here.

      This is a relatively new pond (started operating last October, added fish this spring). Initially, had problems with the pump not providing much flow and thought it was just the design. It turned out there was some debris that somehow mad it past the two skimmers and got stuck in the pump impeller so the pond was only cycling maybe 500 gallons per hour. The readings were off slightly (usually the 2nd “color” on the charts). Since it was clogged from the start, I didn’t know better until someone suggested I clean the pump. Once the pump was unclogged, the water now flows at about 1900 gallons per hour. Now the readings are fine.

      I will try to add some pictures and/or a video.

      I use Vanish Plus as a chloramine binder and about 2 ounces was added yesterday when I did a partial change. I will start a larger water change now.

      Let me correct my OP. Yesterday, I added 0.5 cups of Microbe Lift PL, not just “ph”. I did add 1 cup BS as I have repeatedly read I should shoot for a 8.2ph since I have a bead filter and to help stabilize the PH. I use API’s Freshwater Master Test Kit along with API’s Phospate, GH, & KH testing kits. Occasionally, the color will be between the best and next best color but has not gotten into the “next best” color since the pump got fixed.

      While my pond is 2,200 gallons (measured), my filter can handle 6,000 gallons. Goal was to ensure I have enough filtration due to being in mostly sun.

      I just looked again and the fish seems to have 4-5 inflamed splotches on its left side, about the size of a dime or smaller. I will try to get a picture but a bit difficult. What is also highly unusual is that it is usually skitterish/shy. Now it is running to things and doesn’t care if I am only 2 feet away, almost as if it is blind. It does swim around like “normal” for a few minutes but does reappear at the surface.

      Hope this helps, John
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      Last edited by JNettles; 09-22-2017 at 05:52 PM. Reason: Added photos

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      Now the poor thing is stuggling to keep to the surface, many times vertical before going down and struggling back up. Any thoughts, or should I just put it out of its misery by anesthetizing it? John
      Last edited by JNettles; 09-23-2017 at 08:53 AM.

    7. #7
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      Is there any chance that anything was sprayed nearby( for mosquitoes, plants, etc.)? My doitsu fish always seem to be the most sensitive.
      GloriaL
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    8. #8
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      Unlikely as my neighbors are not very landscape or outdoorsy types and we are careful. IF they were, would this rectify itself or ??? Any other thoughts, anyone?

    9. #9
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      If it's toxins it won't rectify itself... large water changes with binder would help. Something I remember
      from classes... "Solution to pollution is dilution".
      --Steve



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    10. #10
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      The "round, inflamed spots on the left side that you show in that pic, are they the round silvery spots? Other than your observation, I see no outward signs of problems with the fish. Sounds like it might be simply a swim bladder issue which, unfortunately, there's not much you can do.

      I would like to recommend something here based on the pic of the pond. Remove the plants. As you can see on the left side along the wall, they are blocking the flow of water across the surface to allow removal of whatever that stuff is via the skimmer. Also, is the bead filter the ONLY filter you have? How often do you backwash it and what procedural length of time do you perform on each backwash/rinse cycle?
      Mike

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    11. #11
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      Unfortunately, the fish and one other small one died this afternoon. However, I still would like answers in case it happens again and/or to help others in the future, especially since another one died which yesterday seemed fine. Yes, the circles were silverish and slightly bloated (maybe 1-2mm). The small one did not have any outward signs whatsoever. I checked the water this morning and, again, everything was as stated above.

      The plants have been there longer than the fish and actually the water does flow mostly down the center. If I put a leaf (or food) in the water near the spout, it will float down past the plants toward the surface skimmer within 15-20 seconds then disperse once past the plants before ending up in the skimmer within 5 minutes. Granted some water flow goes to the side but there is an underwater inflow (supply coming into the pond) on the far right side (facing the spout) so it helps to circulate the water some.

      I typically do a 100-150 gallon water change with backwash every 3 days. If for some reason the spout flow is reducing, I will do a 200 gallon backwash/change. When I back wash, I alternate between backwash and rinse (not waste) every 45 seconds to a minute (depending on the gunk, if any, showing in the little glass side bowl) until the gunk stops flowing, typically about 3-4 cycles. Then I put on waste until a total of about 100-150 gallons (including the backwashing) are removed. I refill with city water after I put in Vanish Plus. I do put in Vanish Plus based on 200 gallons since the pond is "topped off" a daily with about 20 gallons.

      Yes, this is the only filter. I do have a UV light also.

      Thanks for the suggestions and I hope this helps, John

    12. #12
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      As this is a butterfly DOITSU fish, those type of scales are normal and they show no outward signs of any issues. The slight raising of the scales you mention unfortunately isn't visible in the pic. As to your filter, I would urge you to get an actual "sight glass" which is a piece of clear pvc attached to the waste port discharge line to allow better visible evidence of when the water runs clear. We NEVER trust those little "sight glass" things most pool filter bodies come with. They're really not effective at verifying to cleaning of the filter.
      Mike

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      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

    13. #13
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      I see that you use a bead filter, but you don't define which one. There are differences in the backwash procedure with some, and if you define which kind, improved guidance can be given.
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    14. #14
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      I will get a sight glass tube installed. The filter is an Easy Pro PBF-6000. Regarding the cause of death, what is the "best guess"? Thanks again, John

    15. #15
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      No idea what's really happening. Based on your perfect water parameter readings you provided and the fact that the fish showed no outwardly signs of infection or injury. Now, the fact that you lost another one tells me there's something going on with water quality that isn't getting to the truth of the cause.
      Mike

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      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

    16. #16
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      Maybe the fish had a stroke?

      Garfield
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    17. #17
      koiman1950's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by coolwon View Post
      Maybe the fish had a stroke?

      Garfield
      And the other "little" one died from what?
      Mike

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    18. #18
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      Quote Originally Posted by koiman1950 View Post
      And the other "little" one died from what?


      Shame it was heartbroken over the loss of its longtime pond buddy.

      Garfield.
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    19. #19
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      Quote Originally Posted by coolwon View Post
      shame it was heartbroken over the loss of its longtime pond buddy.

      Garfield.
      roflmao~!
      Mike

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    20. #20
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      Quote Originally Posted by koiman1950 View Post
      roflmao~!

      I offer food for thought.

      The best you can do is offer cheap contractors "SLANG"

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      Last edited by coolwon; 09-26-2017 at 03:16 AM.
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