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    Thread: Sudden Illness

    1. #41
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      I am sad to report that the sanke pictured most recently has also now died, meaning less than 24 hours from when I noticed a problem until death. This time it did not face a PP treatment to finish it off, either.

      I inspected the gills and found them a soft pink, seemingly quite intact. No obvious signs of gill disease.

      I took a scrape and found nothing. I am wondering if I'm just not getting enough zoom, but the test viewing chip that comes with my microscope allows me to clearly see 0.1mm squares with ease, so that seems enough power to me. Maybe someone who knows more about microscopes can comment? I don't know if that's enough to see Costia, but surely the larger ones?

      Under these circumstances, I am now expecting to lose most of my pond to whatever this is. I cannot identify the attacker, cannot tell which fish are affected until the last few hours and it kills without much outward signs except until the last minute when the fish starts acting lethargic.

      I will try to start some kind of treatment in the morning. I'm thinking to net most fish, check and clean any ulcers and then treat the pond with something (Proform C or Bifuran). The latter would have to go in first if we're convinced its a bacterial attack. But at this stage, I'm not sure there's time left for guessing before my whole pond is in danger.

      Very disheartening.

    2. #42
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      These ulcers you've posted pics of are not something that just suddenly appeared. It could take up to a week for this type of issue to look as bad as these did. As I believe I mentioned before, and others did as well, it would be best if you removed each fish for inspection IMMEDIATELY. I don't know about the way you're measuring things with a microscope. I've always used the magnification powers listed as 100x,400x,1600x etc. Most parasites should be visible at 100x, but you might have to go to 400x to see things like Ich or possibly even Costia or Chilodonella. The pic of the first Sanke showed a swelling of the abdomen which usually means, along with outward ulceration signs, the fish went septic. I believe the second one has now succumb the same way.
      Mike

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      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

    3. #43
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      Inspection is complete on all but two fish.

      The one fish (was showa, now a shiro) that had an ulcer first does appear to be healing. There is still an ulcer present, and scales are missing, but the skin appears to have closed up and is a light pink, much like say uncooked chicken. I cleaned it with HP and applied neosporin and denture powder, then liquid bandage and back into the pond. He is now clamping that side's pectoral fin, but I suppose that should be no suprise.

      No other fish had any ulcers that we could detect.

      A 20" showa has a single scale with blood underneath. Scale is otherwise fine. This fish I have previously observed to be slightly lethargic, though not at all times.

      One doitsu has very little slime coat and a slight reddish tinge to skin on one side. Looks like a stress reaction to me, probably due to the previous PP treatments.

      2 fish had their gills inspected. Nothing out of the ordinary. Healthy and red.

      No fish required immediate Baytril that I could see, unless their symptoms are completely internal. Externally the koi were in surprisingly good shape, including slime coats in most cases. Certainly good news, but still a headscratcher that some could die quickly, and others are completely unaffected.

      I'm going to push ahead and Proform the pond today, most notably because of the Showa with the one scale that is bloodied; just in case that's a parasite attack which predicates a bacterial attack on that area followed by an ulcer. Currently doing a 25% water change. I am still leaning towards Bifuran after a 2 or 3 day Proform regimen.

      Cleaned the S/G as part of the water change. After 7 days, it was moderately dirty, but ran clean within 20 seconds of aeration.
      Last edited by Otrex; 09-23-2017 at 04:17 PM.

    4. #44
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      Is it possible to get a picture of the fish, side ways shot of the head preferred?

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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    5. #45
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      Yes, I plan on pulling out that 20" Showa tomorrow for either Baytril or an Oxolinic Acid bath and so will take a photo of the bloodied scale. Any other fish to take a photo of? Perhaps the ulcered one that I believe is healing?

      I'm leaning towards the Oxolinic Acid bath because I am inexperienced with injections, so feedback on Oxolinic Acid would be appreciated. The Koiphen Calculator indicates that the Oxolinic Acid bath treatment is suitable for any case in which Baytril would be used but short of that I have no personal experience with it (though I was just given a whole tub of it).


      EDIT: Based on some feedback from some users here, I think I will add Prazi to the third day of Proform treatment as per the Health Sticky. If I'm going to fire the shotgun, I might as well have all the ammo loaded.
      Last edited by Otrex; 09-23-2017 at 11:12 PM.

    6. #46
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      Quote Originally Posted by Otrex View Post
      Yes, I plan on pulling out that 20" Showa tomorrow for either Baytril or an Oxolinic Acid bath and so will take a photo of the bloodied scale. Any other fish to take a photo of? Perhaps the ulcered one that I believe is healing?

      I'm leaning towards the Oxolinic Acid bath because I am inexperienced with injections, so feedback on Oxolinic Acid would be appreciated. The Koiphen Calculator indicates that the Oxolinic Acid bath treatment is suitable for any case in which Baytril would be used but short of that I have no personal experience with it (though I was just given a whole tub of it).


      EDIT: Based on some feedback from some users here, I think I will add Prazi to the third day of Proform treatment as per the Health Sticky. If I'm going to fire the shotgun, I might as well have all the ammo loaded.
      Good pics of gills please.

    7. #47
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      Today I had help from an excellent new Koiphen friend and we were able to catch the 20" Sanke for a closer inspection, scrape & scope, pictures, and treatment. Please note that the previous evening I had started a Microbe-Lift Broad Spectrum treatment (Proform C, essentially).

      After sedation, we were able to make a close inspection of the gills, underside, and that one scale with blood behind it. Here are some pictures:

      First, here is a picture of the top of the head. Suddenly it is peeling too; something we saw in at least one of the other koi that is now deceased. Note also the brown reddish marks on the nose. This does not wipe off - almost looks like dried blood just underneath the skin (not present the day before).



      Note that the tail and pectoral fins also had this mild staining too, and mild fraying at the ends of the fins.



      Here is a shot of the gills. They look fairly good to me. Slight tattering on one side, but colour looks good.



      Interesting to note that there is some more dried blood staining on the underside of the face. This may have been present yesterday - we did not sedate at that time and so with this fish being a bit feisty we could possibly have missed it before.



      Here is a picture of the scale with blood behind it. Doesn't look severe at this stage, but we did treat it with iodine.




      The scrape & Scope was clean - not a single thing moving anywhere. Maybe not surprising given the use of Proform the night before, but I was able to confirm that my budget digital microscope is able to render a zoom level similar to the real microscope my new Koiphen friend brought along.

      For treatment we dabbed iodine and polysporin under the bleeding scale and onto the peeling surface of the forehead.

      Also, I had the good fortune to source ceftriaxone yesterday. We elected to inject the Sanke with this broad-based antibiotic, and I am fortunate my new friend was knowledgeable in this area.

      The other surviving fish in the pond are behaving normally, except the one former Showa-now-Shiro who is still clamping his pectoral fin over the treated ulcer. As of 6 hours after antibiotics treatment, the Sanke is up and swimming as before - a little lethargic, but not necessarily isolating. My undertanding is that I should see good results from the ceftriaxone within a couple days, or else at day 4, I should inject again.

      Tomorrow I plan on adding another dose of Proform C, along with Prazi. Then the question becomes if I should treat the pond with Bifuran for antibacterial properties, but if I'm not mistaken I'll need to wait a week while the Prazi has a chance to work since Bifuran requires a 25% daily water change, right?
      Last edited by Otrex; 09-25-2017 at 12:06 AM.

    8. #48
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      I think you are correct. What you are seeing there is dried blood under the skin. It is more apparent on the picture of the tail. I human terms it is called disseminated intravascular coagulation or DIC. From what I understand it is from microclots formed brought about by massive tissue damage either from infection or truama. It is usually associated with critical illness; somebody in it's last leg. At this stage there would have already been end organ damages. I think Ceftriaxone is the best you can do but it would have been more effective like yesterday or the day before. But again koi are not like humans; it is said they have immune powers better than humans and perhaps can bounce back from this. Keep our fingers crossed.

      To support fish already sick and prevent further illness:

      I think you are correct again about your feeling that there is something in your water that is making you koi sick one by one and you have to correct this sooner than later. My assumption is that your water is not really that clear and if it's bacterial count is what your after to reduce, make your water clear. And do this without throwing chemicals in the pond. Clear means colorless and free of suspended solids. I recommend changing out a least 10% water daily while using a binder like safe. Place a batting material somewhere in you system to catch suspended solids and clean this daily. Flush out your sieve once or twice a day. Shading the pond will reduce suspended algae. Also if you have not done so already reduce or better yet suspend feeding. Also if you have TPRs reduce the flow so that that fine floaty solids will easily settle down toward the bottom drain.


      I'm not exactly sure in terms of timeline, but I am guessing you've probably introduced pathogenic bacteria in your pond by adding the new fish. You've probably introduced them in the most unfortunate time around where you've replace your static filter thereby removing a ton of beneficial bacteria that could have out competed these pathogens. Or, you could have given resident pathogens the upper hand by stress caused by that ever so slight nitrite spike that got measured during the filter switch out.
      Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time. ---- John Lennon.



    9. #49
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      I don't know if you can get KoiZyme or AquaMedZyme. Both of these are good bacteria that work by competitive exclusion to reduce the levels of pathogenic bacteria. I would rather see this used than the Bifuran, as I suspect the Bifuran will negatively affect the bio bacteria at a time that the bio bacteria is most needed for maintenance of high quality water. Both of these bacteria are not able to replicate in the pond, so must be dosed on a schedule, but have shown significant reductions in the number of colony forming units of Aeromonas and Psudomonas bacteria, which do replicate in a pond environment.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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    10. #50
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      Thank you, Rich, I will look for those. In the interim, I will check for more information on Bifuran. I seem to recall that it did not affect the filters, but I will want to confirm that before putting it in, certainly. Given that Prazi goes in tomorrow, my understanding is that I'll have a week before I should make any further water changes or additions anyways.

      As of this evening the Sanke in question has more noticeable blood staining on the nose, though after I have been told that this is to be expected regardless of the koi improving or declining, and doesn't necessarily indicate either. On a positive note, the Sanke is attempting to swim with the group, and doing a reasonable job of it. Still not eating, but I did see it nibbling algae from the bottom of the liner. It did not enjoy the first few moments of today's Proform treatment, but I know that's not unusual and I suspect that it's a sign that it's still got some fight left in it. The previous Sanke to die was disregarding nearly every stimuli in its last 24 hours of life.
      Last edited by Otrex; 09-25-2017 at 10:14 PM.

    11. #51
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      The information on the Bifuran is that it kills bacteria, and the bio filter works by bio bacteria converting ammonia to nitrite to nitrate. Bacteria is bacteria, or so I have come to believe, and would be susceptible to any antibiotic, bacteriacide, etc.. Now if the dosage is small so it is completely consumed killing bacteria in the pond before getting a chance to be exposed to the bio filter, then it may not damage the bio filter bacteria, but I don't know if it would do that much to the bacteria colonies in the pond. It would scare me.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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    12. #52
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      The big Sanke remains alive as of this evening, one day after the final "Proform" treatment with Prazi. Swimming more actively now, he is hanging out with the group but not yet eating food (has been about 7 days since his last meal).

      He still has some blood marks in the vicinity of his nose, and I assume still on his fins and underside.

      It remains to be seen whether he will survive, but so far, so good. I am now debating, since he is at the 4-day post-antibiotic injections mark, whether to dose him again. It's a powerful antibiotic, but another possibly unneeded dose seems better than the risk of needing a second dose and not delivering on it.

    13. #53
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      I would tend to agree with you on the decision to give that next dose of antibiotic. Fish don't eat when they are feeling bad, but they won't starve, so don't worry too much about getting it to eat. It will eat when it is ready.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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    14. #54
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      My new koi friend came back over today and was ready to help inject the antibiotic, but since last night the fish has again improved, and is now largely swimming with the pack. Still not eating, but does appear to be taking the odd nibble from the wall. His fins are a little less ragged at the ends and the blood staining in the fins appears to be greatly reduced or gone completely. After several minutes of discrete observation, we both agreed that netting the fish out (for the 3rd time this week) was probably going to add unnecessary stress when we both felt the fish was steadily improving. We're going to revisit the antibiotic option again in 2-3 days, or as soon as the koi's health trajectory fails to continue upward. This particular antibiotic has, so far, appeared to be extremely effective even with one dose. I'll be keeping a close eye on him.

      A couple items:

      i) My new testing kit includes Nitrates as a liquid test whereas my previous testing experience was with powder added as a second testing reagent. Turns out I need to shake the liquid test more than I have been doing. My most recent nitrate test a few days ago may be invalid because today nitrates were at around 60ppm whereas before I tested as near-zero. This is complicated by the fact that I've had an obvious algae die-off in the water over the past couple of days thanks to the previous PP treatments and now, in particular, the Proform C treatments (which I've read can cause big algae kills). So with my trusty algae layer now turning grey and brown the koi are shredding it up easily and it can be seen floating in the water, and in response nitrates seem to have climbed. I'll keep an eye on the nitrates while the Prazi does its work. If we start to go over 80ppm I'll be tempted to do a 15% water change despite the Prazi less than a week in the water. On the other hand, with the Proform not nearly as strong now that the treatment period has ended, maybe the algae will make a quick comeback in the nitrate-rich water?

      ii) Ammonia and Nitrite both remain at 0.

      iii) No new fish seem affected by the bacterial attack. No new ulcers. Still weighing a whole-pond anti-bacterial treatment in 4 days (Bifuran or alternative).

    15. #55
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      Don't worry to much about the nitrates. Yes it is better to have them lower, but it is very difficult to get them down. A 15% water change will only reduce them about 1/6th, or to about 50, and another 15% will only bring them down to about 42, but in the time between changes, it will climb back at least part way. The way to achieve lower nitrate levels is through continuous flow through of new water, or reduction of herd size. II had two ponds and ran nitrates that were in that range for years. Finally through flow through and reduction in herd size, I was able to get the nitrates down to about 10. Then I sold all of the fish and now don't have to worry about it at all.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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    16. #56
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      Interesting what happens when you don't shake the nitrate bottle. You're suppose to shake bottle #2 for 30 seconds and set it down (shaking of bottle #2 is critical because the suspension of chemicals will be sitting at the bottom if not resuspended). Put 10 drops of bottle #1, cap and shake for 5 seconds before adding 10 drops of bottle #2. After all is added you're suppose to shake the solution for a FULL minute. When posters post their nitrates as zero or 'close to zero' we often end up scratching our heads, when in fact (learning from this case), it's an error in technique.

      https://www.google.ca/search?q=api+n...TF-8#kpvalbx=1

      With nitrates consider 5-20ppm pretty good. Consider 40+ polluted water. With high margins of error in reading (test kit, technique, and colour recognition), when seeing red, consider that nitrate could possibly be 160ppm or higher. Sure koi can adapt to high levels of nitrates but of course it's better lower (non-red 5-20ppm). High nitrates is an added stress which lowers disease resistance and recovery.
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    17. #57
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      An "interesting" issue with the Sanke that I noticed yesterday. I think there may be some swelling in the mouth area, perhaps a result of that dried blood spotted on the nose area? It seems to have made moving its mouth a bit difficult, and I did observe it try to swallow a piece of food and it seems to not be able to create much suction in order to eat. It did get the piece down, but within 10 secs shook its head and spit the broken pieces of the food back out again, suggesting to me that there may be some swelling inside the mouth too.

      I wonder if this is a side-effect of whatever bacteria the antibiotics have been treating, or perhaps I should proceed to the 2nd antibiotics injection directly?

    18. #58
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      Head shaking and food spitting is common with gill flukes and other parasites that are irritating the gills. The Prazi should have gone in about 4 days ago, if I am reading the posts correctly, so give it more time. BTW, what is your pond temperature now? If it is much below 70F, 21C then I think it would be a good idea to make another addition when the water change/filter cleaning takes place at about a week. A couple of days ago, it had not eaten or attempted to eat, and now it is at least starting to attempt to eat, so that is a good sign.

      If there is swelling, can you get a picture of it for us to look at?

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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      Managed to get a reasonable picture of him. Seems to be swelling at the sides of the mouth, preventing him from sucking down food as he cannot manipulate his mouth properly to create suction (not sure what that part is called, but his mouth does not extend properly, possibly due to swelling). He is swimming with his mouth partially open, as shown in this picture.

      The dried blood on the nose has disappeared, but cannot see if it is also gone from the underside of the mouth. I would have to think that this swelling is somehow related.

      Last edited by Otrex; 10-02-2017 at 08:24 PM.

    20. #60
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      Sometimes their mouths can become stuck open. I had one like this. It figured out how to eat like that until the mouth finally closed.

      What is your KH level?
      Andrea
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