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    Thread: Sudden Illness

    1. #21
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      Quote Originally Posted by koiman1950 View Post
      Without being able to scrape and scope any of the remaining fish like this showa, is rather hard to diagnose and further recommend any type of chemical treatment. At least you could do would be to remove the Showa to a bowl and put it down with MS222 or clove oil if you can't get the MS222, and inspect it thoroughly. If the ulcer has gotten worse again, you could always treat with iodine on a q-tip to thoroughly get in/around the wound, and then use something like denture powder or "bag balm" to seal the wound before returning to pond. You could then simple catch a couple of the other fish and just roll them over to quickly inspect the entire body and return to the pond if no further action is warranted. Your "assumptions" are normal for most people but they don't really mean that much other than to at least investigate further to ease your mind or confirm you suspicions.
      I alluded to, but maybe didn't explain earlier that I scoped that Showa when I first treated the ulcer. I could not find anything under the scope at all other than a few bits of black scale moving slowly in the current.

      This is why I'm wondering if Bifuran is used as part of a shotgun solution to bacteria in cases such as this?

      Yes, I intend to pull the Showa again if possible.

    2. #22
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      agree so much- evidence of a larger issue - sorry.
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    3. #23
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      sorry for the loss! To save your other fish ..would you repeat your water test please and post results. If you have a QA tank and a favourite fish - I would move there with no salt and a ton of o2. Everything you are saying refers to PP, i.m an old guy is PP potassium permanganate? The Great Oxidizer?
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    4. #24
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      Correct, PP is potassium permanganate.

      My suspicion is that the new fish, despite quarantine at the dealer, arrived with a bacteria not present in my pond for some time, and therefore the old fish are suffering because their immune system is not set up to handle such bacteria as well as it would in the wild. A kind of "Typhoid Mary" scenario. It is strange that the new fish could be here for 3 months before others start to die, but perhaps that is the nature of how long it takes for bacteria to reach a dangerous level if dropped into a new environment.

      I have no way to quarantine, so I am leaning towards a shotgun treatment solution, with bacteria the leading candidate over parasites. I have found someone able to supply me with Bifuran so I'm leaning towards a Proform, then Bifuran, then small dose of PP treatment schedule over the next few days. Anyone have any thoughts on that approach. Is that a shotgun with enough "spread" to fight an unknown enemy?

      Yes, I intend to retest water either Monday or Tuesday, just to ensure parameters are good. So far this new pond has been a good kind of boring - the tests are always 0 for ammonia and nitrite.
      Last edited by Otrex; 09-17-2017 at 08:29 PM.

    5. #25
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      I have never seen any time that you would need to use both PP and Proform. They both kill the same parasites. I have not seen a lot of use of Bifuran, so not sure of how good it would be. If it is an antibiotic, then it will likely hammer the bio bugs in the bio filter, causing you to have to go through the cycle again. The Tricide Neo is an antibiotic that can be used dry as a topical, or as specified on the container as a bath, or my preferred method as a spray, treating in a container outside the pond, then rinsing so the antibiotic is not hammering the bio.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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    6. #26
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      I believe Bifuran is anti-bacterial, but not necessarily an anti-biotic. Here is the information from the manufacturer:

      Bifuran Powder is a mixture of Nitrofurazone (80%) and Furazolidone (20%). Bifuran possesses bacteriostatic, bacteriocidal and antimicrobial properties useful for treating and controlling bacterial and sporozonoan diseases. It is indicated for the control of Aeromonas spp.,Vibrio spp., and other bacterial pathogens. Bifuran treats external diseases AND internal (systemic) diseases. It can be used as a bath (or dip), a total pond treatment or it can be given orally. It is very effective for controlling ulcers, fin rot, mouth rot and tail rot. Bifuran is a very effective total pond treatment.


      Anyone familiar with those active ingredients? I believe I've read elsewhere that you can run it through the filters too, but I'm still looking to confirm that.

    7. #27
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      Unfortunately, I have found another Sanke in distress and suffering from an open ulcer and bloody fin. This time on the underside. The ulcer is wide but not deep, though quite raw looking. Fish was behaving normally yesterday and today was lethargic which is why I went for a closer inspection.

      I am really leaning towards this being a full-scale bacterial attack on the whole pond, with random fish succumbing to it earlier than others. I welcome suggestions on what to do - a 2pm PP treatment seems to have done nothing to slow this down.

      I am also going to assume that there are other fish with ulcers which I cannot see because it's on their underside as well.

      I now have Bifuran and Oxolinic Acid at my disposal if I need them. I am leaning towards treating the whole pond with Bifuran but welcome other advice.

      Last edited by Otrex; 09-22-2017 at 02:39 PM.

    8. #28
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      While this NOW looks bacterial, I suspect it started with parasites. Once they attach and break the slime coat/skin, it allows the bacteria, which some actually use the parasite as a host, to find a free lunch and begin to set up shop for what you now see. If you could provide some immediate test results from droplet test kits (no strips) including morning/evening Ph readings it would be a decent starting point. Also, can you explain with pic/text your filtration system along with how many total gallons of water, the flow rates, stocking density (# and size) and feeding regimen with how much is fed at each feeding. Oh, and don't forget the current water temps! Thanks!
      Mike

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    9. #29
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      Quote Originally Posted by koiman1950 View Post
      While this NOW looks bacterial, I suspect it started with parasites. Once they attach and break the slime coat/skin, it allows the bacteria, which some actually use the parasite as a host, to find a free lunch and begin to set up shop for what you now see. If you could provide some immediate test results from droplet test kits (no strips) including morning/evening Ph readings it would be a decent starting point. Also, can you explain with pic/text your filtration system along with how many total gallons of water, the flow rates, stocking density (# and size) and feeding regimen with how much is fed at each feeding. Oh, and don't forget the current water temps! Thanks!
      Sure thing, I can supply that information. As of 3pm today the readings were:

      pH - 8.3
      KH - 7 degrees/drops (this is a little lower than I usually have it, but increased water changes have driven it down a bit from the 10-12 degrees that I prefer).
      Ammonia - 0
      Nitrite - 0
      Nitrate - essentially 0 (slightly darker yellow than 0 but nowhere close to the next orange colour on the chart)

      *This pond is very good at keeping the bottom clean. Liner appears clear of any waste, food, or other. Good algae coating on liner, but koi keep it well pruned. Never had any problems with string algae, I assume because Nitrates are always low.

      Gallonage is 3100 gallons including pipes/filters. Actual pond itself is a about 2900 gallons.

      Filtration is 4" bottom drain up 45-degree slope to Zakki Sieve. After sieve, skimmer line ties in to the flow and goes to pump. From pump there is a split in the flow. Half through an S/G before being gravity fed back to 2 TPRs, the other half through a UV55 then into a 50 gallon moving bed (3 cubic feet media) then over a bakki shower (another 3 cubic feet ceramic media) before returning to pond over a waterfall. I can supply a schematic of this if you wish - I also built this pond with help from the Koiphen community so there are some pics in my build thread.

      Flow rate is approximately 4500 gallons per hour (pump rated at 6400gph at this head pressure, but I clock it closer to 4500gph) , so entire pond circulates every 45 mins or so. Extra Aeration is handled by two air pumps. One operates via the BD lid, and it comes on for 5 one-hour sessions each 24h day. The other is running constantly and the flow is split between the moving bed and the sump at the bottom of the bakki shower.

      12 fish, with an average size of 17" in this pond (though I suspect that number is about to fall ).

      Feeding is 4-6 times per day in the Summer. Hikari Gold. Enough food that it is consumed completely in less than a minute. I suspect I am underfeeding based on the normal 2%-3% criteria.

      Water temperature is 76F as of 5pm after a hot day here (80F) . Salt is at 0.31% and being diluted out with 10% water changes every 7-12 days. I use the cleaning of the S/G filter as a good way to perform such changes.

      __________________________________________________ ___________________

      RECENT DEVELOPMENTS and PREVIOUS INCIDENTS

      1 Showa about a month ago developed an ulcer and quickly lost all her beni and is now a messy Shiro. Ulcer just behind left pectoral. Upon seeing color start to fade, I provided a salt dip and 3 or 4 PP treatments to the whole pond at 3ppm. That Showa is still alive and eating, though I can still see an ulcer that appears to have slowed or stopped getting worse (perhaps even showing pinkish new skin?) Fish is near-impossible to catch - last time I caught her about 1 month ago, a scrape down the side, gills, and near the ulcer showed no discernable movement at around 300x magnification (I say "around" because my scope is digital).

      1 Sanke, the one that started this thread, which went from visibly okay to dead inside 48 hours just 3 days ago. Swelling behind the pectoral fin, blood in same fin. Mild peeling on the head.

      1 Sanke (the one in the photo above) around the same time had a couple of scales bloodied along its back. At the time I suspected a Raccoon attack and it too received a salt bath and was present in the pond for the same 3 or 4 PP treatments. It healed right back up immediately, and colour returned to normal (had looked a bit cloudy at damage point). Now, some 3 or 4 weeks later, this large ulcer appeared (photo above) and it was lethargic on the bottom this morning. I have pulled the koi out today, given her a Oxolinic Acid bath for 30 mins as per the Koiphen calculator, and returned her to the pond. She is now swimming around, but near the surface, unattentive and not responsive to much stimuli (i.e. bumps into my hand, changes direction, swims away slowly). Her mouth is moving fairly rapidly, much like one would expect if she were eating something (though she is not actively eating).

      1 Ogon that previously (2 months ago) had ever so slight peeling on the forehead which caused mild discolouration (less than dime sized). I have noticed mild peeling has now returned to that same spot, but still very small area affected. Slight blood ragged edge in the peeling area, but very minimal (only spotted it because I'm now paranoid).
      Last edited by Otrex; 09-22-2017 at 06:55 PM.

    10. #30
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      Tell me, with regards to the s/g filters. How often are they cleaned and is there a bottom purge to allow draining from the bottom of the barrels? I know 4500gph with a 3000gal pond sounds like plenty of turnover, but I suspect there's not near enough flow, especially over the shower unit to be effective. Something is causing "continuous" issues that appear to be long lasting and repeating. That, to me, belies an issue within the filtration. If the fish are breathing heavily and constantly, it sounds like you might also have a bacterial gill infection or a costia outbreak which would make sense with the peeling skin, ulcers on the body and hard breathing. 2ppm PP will NOT remedy this malady. And, you're going to most likely need some form of injectible antibiotics to treat/cure that Sanke and possibly others. You're right though, your stocking density will be reduced if you aren't able to get a handle of this and quickly.
      Mike

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    11. #31
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      There is a lower purge valve on the bottom of the S/G, but I only put it there in the case that it needs to be completely drained for some reason. It is cleaned every 7-12 days and the air pump I am using is so strong it really hammers a pile of air through the rocks at the bottom. I carefully followed the Birdman design specs on that item. Based on the amount of waste I can get out of there during cleaning I would be surprised if anything could stay on the bottom (because there is also 2000gph water coming in from the bottom when I also force the air inside). When I clean it the water goes from dark brown to very clear before I stop the air blower.

      The Bakki trays are small at roughly 24" x 24". I have approximately 2500 - 3000 gph going through it. Matala in the top tray to help keep the ceramic media below clean. Though I know these flow rates don't compete with full scale Bakki Showers, I would bet that on a square footage of media versus flow rate, it is comparable. Most Bakki Shower trays that I have seen are massive by comparison, so I imagine they take much higher flow before they're maxed out.

      Only the one fish (the Sanke) is breathing hard at present. The rest are acting mostly-normal, with one Showa who is a bit lethargic.

      I fed some Bifuran-laced rice this afternoon and most have consumed at least some of it. The sick Sanke is not interested, however. I am tempted to just treat the whole pond with Bifuran, even though I know it makes everything yellow for a couple of weeks. Apparantly it is safe to use with filtration turned on because it doesn't hurt the "good" bacteria.

      I have researched Baytril and it cannot be gotten in Canada without a prescription, and no vets in my area deal with Koi or are willing to write a prescription. I DID however, have someone give me a bottle of Baytril yesterday, though it looks like it's at least 1-2 years beyond its best before date. That being said, it was stored in a cool dark area and is still clear (I understand if it goes cloudy, it's no good). I could take a risk an inject the sick Sanke? That doesn't solve the rest of the issues with this bacterial attack.

      What are your thoughts? Go for the Bifuran treatment on the whole pond? Something else?
      Last edited by Otrex; 09-22-2017 at 07:08 PM.

    12. #32
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      I would do a 50% water change and start the baytril asap. Catch all the koi and check them out. Slow and steady with net. Don't chase the koi. They are quicker than you. Check the gills and give pics of gills as well. Treat the koi with ulcers using iodine. Your going to have to clean the ulcer area and pull the bad scales off with twissors.
      Have the koi shown any behavioral changes such as flashing. rubbing. isolation, gulping etc the last month or so? Have there been any changes to your pond system or surroundings of pond in the last couple of months? Have you done anything out of the norm in the last several weeks?

      You should have a bowl with oil of clove or ms222 ready to put fish in when you net them if they have an issue. Treat,inject and move on to the next one. Write down the koi that have been treated. This will eliminate catching the same koi twice. You do not have to treat the hole pond. There is something else going on that we do not have the information at this time.
      I do not know if your going to save the one not eating and isolating. Generally when they get to this stage they are near the end but would inject asap and see what happens.

      Your temps at 76 are good for kois immune system but am guessing this will change soon as temps well begin to drop. This can complicate things.

      Koi do not get ulcers just because. There has to be a trigger or stressor.

      Good luck and make it happen.
      Last edited by kdh; 09-22-2017 at 08:24 PM.

    13. #33
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      Though PP will take care of the parasites, it must remain pink/purple for at least 10-12 hours. I prefer to use it with the test strips http://www.sensafe.com/test-strips/s...-bottle-of-50/ and maintain the 2PPM level though out the treatment time of at least 6 hours. The PP is consumed by DOC's, bacteria, and other organics through out the treatment, so continuous monitoring and additions are needed to maintain a specified level. If you can get a product that has the formalin/malachite green like the Proform C, or https://www.amazon.com/Eco-Labs-BSDT...words=formalin, or similar, those seem to be more easily used.

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    14. #34
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      Quote Originally Posted by RichToyBox View Post
      Though PP will take care of the parasites, it must remain pink/purple for at least 10-12 hours. I prefer to use it with the test strips http://www.sensafe.com/test-strips/s...-bottle-of-50/ and maintain the 2PPM level though out the treatment time of at least 6 hours. The PP is consumed by DOC's, bacteria, and other organics through out the treatment, so continuous monitoring and additions are needed to maintain a specified level. If you can get a product that has the formalin/malachite green like the Proform C, or https://www.amazon.com/Eco-Labs-BSDT...words=formalin, or similar, those seem to be more easily used.
      Sorry, I am a bit confused. I do have a bottle of Microbe-Lift Broad Spectrum which contains formalin/malachite green, but am I treating for parasites or bacteria? I have salt at .31% so I would need to keep all aeration on if I wanted to use the broad spectrum.

      The other option would be to pull out the two fish which have ulcers, clean and treat them (Debride covered with denture powder and liquid bandage) then give Baytril injections. But at the same time treat the pond with the Bifuran which does not care about salt but requires daily 25% water change. Once those water changes are complete that should dilute the salt down to the point where I can go to Proform C or similar. Is that an acceptable regimine?


      Also, since the Baytril is 1+ years (as much as 7 years beyond shelf date, cannot tell because the expiry says "201x" where the x is just a rubbed off number), I don't know if I should risk giving it to ALL the fish that may need it right away. Isn't it possible that expired Baytril could outright kill them? For those just joining us, I have no access to Baytril - it is tightly controlled in Canada. I DO have a full bottle of Oxolinic Acid, which the Koiphen calculator suggests can be used as a replacement for Bayril as a dip. My sanke got just such a dip today and he perked up, but not enough to start eating or stop isolating himself.
      Last edited by Otrex; 09-22-2017 at 09:10 PM.

    15. #35
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      Quote Originally Posted by kdh View Post
      I would do a 50% water change and start the baytril asap. Catch all the koi and check them out. Slow and steady with net. Don't chase the koi. They are quicker than you. Check the gills and give pics of gills as well. Treat the koi with ulcers using iodine. Your going to have to clean the ulcer area and pull the bad scales off with twissors.
      Have the koi shown any behavioral changes such as flashing. rubbing. isolation, gulping etc the last month or so? Have there been any changes to your pond system or surroundings of pond in the last couple of months? Have you done anything out of the norm in the last several weeks?

      You should have a bowl with oil of clove or ms222 ready to put fish in when you net them if they have an issue. Treat,inject and move on to the next one. Write down the koi that have been treated. This will eliminate catching the same koi twice. You do not have to treat the hole pond. There is something else going on that we do not have the information at this time.
      I do not know if your going to save the one not eating and isolating. Generally when they get to this stage they are near the end but would inject asap and see what happens.

      Your temps at 76 are good for kois immune system but am guessing this will change soon as temps well begin to drop. This can complicate things.

      Koi do not get ulcers just because. There has to be a trigger or stressor.

      Good luck and make it happen.
      The big issue is that the Baytril is long expired. It's a risk if I inject fish with it, though I think the risk might be worth it on the isolating Sanke since he may be finished without any immediate and drastic step.

      The others are all acting fairly normally, except one Showa who is a bit lethargic. Hangs with the pack, eats less than usual.

      Nobody is excessively flashing or rubbing or gasping at this time and have not been doing so all Summer. Whatever this attack is, it's a silent killer because all the ulcers have been on the underside and one fish died without showing symptoms until 48 hours before death.

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      I guess the big questions I have, considering the feedback received thus far is:

      i) Should I be treating for parasites, bacteria or both? One person has said to just start Baytril and forget the water, and another says to use Proform while yet another believes it's bacterial. I'm not mad or anything, just wanting to try to find some consensus in a difficult situation with few clues. Does the lack of consensus suggest that I should inject the worst fish with Baytril and then shotgun treat the rest of the pond?

      ii) If I am to shotgun treat, considering my salt level, do I inject the expired Baytril into the worst Sanke, then use Bifuran to treat the pond for bacteria, then use the those water changes required with Bifuran to dilute the salt down to the point where I can finish up with Proform C or similar?


      The only things that changed in the pond this year were:

      i) Removed static bed filter, replaced with moving bed.

      ii) Changed food to Hikari Gold.

      iii) Added new fish <---- yes, this is the likely culprit.


      Otherwise, this pond has run very well for 3 years with never a reading for ammonia or nitrite except a small rise when I removed the static bed and exchanged it for moving bed.
      Last edited by Otrex; 09-22-2017 at 09:11 PM.

    17. #37
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      Quote Originally Posted by Otrex View Post
      The big issue is that the Baytril is long expired. It's a risk if I inject fish with it, though I think the risk might be worth it on the isolating Sanke since he may be finished without any immediate and drastic step.

      The others are all acting fairly normally, except one Showa who is a bit lethargic. Hangs with the pack, eats less than usual.

      Nobody is excessively flashing or rubbing or gasping at this time and have not been doing so all Summer. Whatever this attack is, it's a silent killer because all the ulcers have been on the underside and one fish died without showing symptoms until 48 hours before death.
      I am not aware of baytril getting old and killing koi when using it. Especially as yours is clear. What it does do is degenerate and thus less effective. But am no expert on the subject. I have used baytril that was over a year out of expiration and had no problem with it. Just my experience.

      Please answer my questions.

      It is quite possible you do not have a parasite issue as there have been no behavioral issues with koi. But this is not written in stone.

      I treated a pond with 13 koi that had ulcers and no parasites.

      Six days ago Mike asked you to treat koi with iodine. Have you done it.? Bacteria increase in numbers by the millions in one day.
      Last edited by kdh; 09-22-2017 at 09:26 PM.

    18. #38
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      What are you treating for??? The answer is both parasites and bacteria. The bacteria is always present in any pond and on any fish, but needs a route to get into the fish. That is where the parasites enter the picture. If they were not present the fish would not have the bacterial infections. I prefer to treat the water to keep from having more issues with the fish, but also treat the fish that is having the problems. For treating the fish with the problems with Baytril, the expiration date is a date that the manufacturer feels it is still fully effective, but it can still be effective for several more years with no problems. Baytril is pretty easy on the fish, so making the fish an extra 1/2 inch longer for dosage determination would increase the dosage slightly, overcoming some of the reduced effectiveness. With butterfly koi, I was taught to treat for a fish of the full length of fish with tail, as you would with out the long tail, but treating as a smaller fish with no tail would be under treating. I never had a problem treating the butterfly.

      I would be treating the pond with the Proform C or similar as soon as possible. If the salt is a little higher than 0.1, which many accept as acceptable, go ahead. If you do the 25% water change your 0.31% comes down to 0.23% and if you were to do a 50% water change, the salinity would be down to 0.15% which would be low enough to use the Proform C.

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    19. #39
      Otrex is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by kdh View Post
      ...

      Please answer my questions. ...
      Apologies, I thought I did. Earlier I said:

      The only things that changed in the pond this year were:

      i) Removed static bed filter, replaced with moving bed.

      ii) Changed food to Hikari Gold.

      iii) Added new fish <---- yes, this is the likely culprit.

      and before that I noted that there were no other strange behaviours in the pond. Are those the questions you were needing answers to, or did I miss something? I realize the more data you can collect from me the better the odds of finding a solution.


      I treated the one koi with the ulcer that seems to be improving with Hydrogen Peroxide. The other fish died promptly so treatment was not possible, and this new Sanke today will get treatment in the morning. I will use hydrogen peroxide, then Debride covered with denture powder and liquid bandage. Also, if the worst Sanke (photo above) is still alive, I'll give a Baytril injection. Along with any other fish on whom I spot ulcers.


      After that, based on what I'm reading here, I should treat with the broad spectrum treatment (i.e. Proform) after a 25% water change, and then think about Bifuran after the Proform is complete (since it's my only blanket bacteria option, other than PP which is going to kill the weakened fish). That way we've treated pretty much everything that this might be, right?
      Last edited by Otrex; 09-22-2017 at 10:59 PM.

    20. #40
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      Quote Originally Posted by Otrex View Post
      Apologies, I thought I did. Earlier I said:

      The only things that changed in the pond this year were:

      i) Removed static bed filter, replaced with moving bed.

      ii) Changed food to Hikari Gold.

      iii) Added new fish <---- yes, this is the likely culprit.

      and before that I noted that there were no other strange behaviours in the pond. Are those the questions you were needing answers to, or did I miss something? I realize the more data you can collect from me the better the odds of finding a solution.


      I treated the one koi with the ulcer that seems to be improving with Hydrogen Peroxide. The other fish died promptly so treatment was not possible, and this new Sanke today will get treatment in the morning. I will use hydrogen peroxide, then Debride covered with denture powder and liquid bandage. Also, if the worst Sanke (photo above) is still alive, I'll give a Baytril injection. Along with any other fish on whom I spot ulcers.


      After that, based on what I'm reading here, I should treat with the broad spectrum treatment (i.e. Proform) after a 25% water change, and then think about Bifuran after the Proform is complete (since it's my only blanket bacteria option, other than PP which is going to kill the weakened fish). That way we've treated pretty much everything that this might be, right?
      You should not have to treat your water with any chemical to reduce bacteria. As long as you have a well balanced pond system and doing regular water changes. There should not be a high bacterial count. Flush out the system and clean up bio etc and you have pretty much taken care of high bacterial count. You well always have some as has been stated. As they are just part of the balance of the system Just as your koi probably have a few parasites at all times.

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