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    Results 61 to 77 of 77

    Thread: Sudden Illness

    1. #61
      Otrex is offline Senior Member
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      KH Level is 10 degrees.

      Had a glance inside the mouth today. Still some dried blood under the skin on the bottom. I think this swelling is interfering with the whole process. The koi is trying to eat now, and doesn't seem to understand why it cannot get food.

    2. #62
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      This is usually from either an internal bacterial infection or parasites like Costia/Chilodinella. Just because a fish starts to show signs of healing shouldn't mean you don't finish a full round of antibiotics as needed.
      Mike

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      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

    3. #63
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      This was a strong antibiotic. It can be considered "complete" after one dose, or at most 2 doses.

      As of today the fish is trying to eat, but mostly unable.

    4. #64
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      Can you post a video?

    5. #65
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      As of today the Sanke is spending all his time on the bottom, right side up with pectoral fins properly spread. He will come up when it is feeding time, but he is tired-looking (lack of food, probably).

      His mouth remains open and I can still see blood staining on the inside of the jaw. He is completely unable to work the mouth and the whole gulping mechanism seems locked up. Keep in mind that even before when he was being treated he was able to move his mouth, so I think it is safe to rule out a parasite or else the other fish that died would likely have exhibited this behaviour and/or this Sanke wouldn't start showing the symptom AFTER a parasite treatment.

      I've scoured the internet and come up with a list of likely suspects, in no particular order:

      i) Reaction to antibiotic - Don't know how likely this is, but you would think it would resolve after 6 days? The antibiotic seems to have removed all previous blood stains and ragged fins, so it must have had some positive effect.

      ii) Something stuck in mouth - Seems unlikely to me. There are no rocks or small items in my pond.

      iii) Reaction to Proform C - Apparently some fish can get a stuck jaw after Proform. This seems possible - it does cooincide with the first use of it. How long would this last though?

      iv) Broken jaw - He has been handled for treatment, but it was as gentle as possible. Seems unlikely it could be a broken jaw.

      v) Ulcer in mouth - This one seems to be the most likely to me. Strange that it happened *after* the antibiotic treatment, but I do see some dried blood on the lower jaw just under the skin surface.


      He is getting slower and weaker each day, though he does try to eat. The dried blood that was on his nose is completely gone and the red streaks in his fins are gone too.

      I think I have to decide on a treatment route, unless his jaw is going to suddenly start working again.

      I'm thinking about an inspection of the mouth to rule out a physical blockage, and then an immediate antibiotic injection if nothing is blocking his mouth. If it is an open ulcer in his mouth I could also try an Oxolinic Acid bath, since it would wash directly onto the ulcer easily.

      For feeding this fish, I'm not sure. I doubt he'll eat if I bowl him, but in the pond he cannot compete with the others for food. Any way to force a fish to consume softened pellets if I bowl him?

      Also interested in hearing what others suspect the issue is, and the best treatment option. I suspect without a "best guess treatment", he is going to die from lack of nutrients. Without the ability to gulp, he is basically getting nothing at all, not even algae from the walls. Something is tiring him out, and he has lost quite a bit of mass so I think time is of the essence.

    6. #66
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      Quote Originally Posted by Otrex View Post
      KH Level is 10 degrees.

      Had a glance inside the mouth today. Still some dried blood under the skin on the bottom. I think this swelling is interfering with the whole process. The koi is trying to eat now, and doesn't seem to understand why it cannot get food.
      Yes, it is swelling, not locked.

      Quote Originally Posted by koiman1950 View Post
      This is usually from either an internal bacterial infection or parasites like Costia/Chilodinella. Just because a fish starts to show signs of healing shouldn't mean you don't finish a full round of antibiotics as needed.
      Quote Originally Posted by Otrex View Post
      This was a strong antibiotic. It can be considered "complete" after one dose, or at most 2 doses.

      So, did you give it a second/third injection? I don't know of too many types of antibiotics that only need one dose although catching a problem at an early stage can remedy a problem, but this one needs more than one dose, obviously.

      As of today the fish is trying to eat, but mostly unable.
      Quote Originally Posted by Otrex View Post
      As of today the Sanke is spending all his time on the bottom, right side up with pectoral fins properly spread. He will come up when it is feeding time, but he is tired-looking (lack of food, probably).

      His mouth remains open and I can still see blood staining on the inside of the jaw. He is completely unable to work the mouth and the whole gulping mechanism seems locked up. Keep in mind that even before when he was being treated he was able to move his mouth, so I think it is safe to rule out a parasite or else the other fish that died would likely have exhibited this behaviour and/or this Sanke wouldn't start showing the symptom AFTER a parasite treatment.

      Possibly, but based on "shotgun" treatments, you may have treated for something other than what's causing the infection. I am leaning more towards internal bacterial infection though at this point/stage which is getting late in the game from the behavior being exhibited.


      I've scoured the internet and come up with a list of likely suspects, in no particular order:

      i) Reaction to antibiotic - Don't know how likely this is, but you would think it would resolve after 6 days? The antibiotic seems to have removed all previous blood stains and ragged fins, so it must have had some positive effect.

      No!

      ii) Something stuck in mouth - Seems unlikely to me. There are no rocks or small items in my pond.

      No!

      iii) Reaction to Proform C - Apparently some fish can get a stuck jaw after Proform. This seems possible - it does cooincide with the first use of it. How long would this last though?

      No!

      iv) Broken jaw - He has been handled for treatment, but it was as gentle as possible. Seems unlikely it could be a broken jaw.

      No! It's swollen internally not broken.

      v) Ulcer in mouth - This one seems to be the most likely to me. Strange that it happened *after* the antibiotic treatment, but I do see some dried blood on the lower jaw just under the skin surface.

      Probably or at least something similar as it is still an infection.


      He is getting slower and weaker each day, though he does try to eat. The dried blood that was on his nose is completely gone and the red streaks in his fins are gone too.

      I think I have to decide on a treatment route, unless his jaw is going to suddenly start working again.

      At this point about the only thing that is really going to have a chance to work is an injection. Unfortunately, as weak as this fish sounds, it might put it over the edge. Then again, if it's that far advanced, it won't hurt to go through with it.

      I'm thinking about an inspection of the mouth to rule out a physical blockage, and then an immediate antibiotic injection if nothing is blocking his mouth. If it is an open ulcer in his mouth I could also try an Oxolinic Acid bath, since it would wash directly onto the ulcer easily.

      Best suggestion and idea you've got.

      For feeding this fish, I'm not sure. I doubt he'll eat if I bowl him, but in the pond he cannot compete with the others for food. Any way to force a fish to consume softened pellets if I bowl him?

      Also interested in hearing what others suspect the issue is, and the best treatment option. I suspect without a "best guess treatment", he is going to die from lack of nutrients. Without the ability to gulp, he is basically getting nothing at all, not even algae from the walls. Something is tiring him out, and he has lost quite a bit of mass so I think time is of the essence.
      He won't eat if bowled. Do the inspection and injection. You're going to lose the fish without taking any action, and at least you'll know, if it still dies, you did everything you could think of. Unfortunately, it's hard to treat a fish from here so do the best you can. Sometimes stuff happens and you have no control. That's the hardest part for most of us, we have no control.
      Mike

      check out our website at: http://www.pond-life.net



      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

    7. #67
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      Finished another full round of antibiotics on the last affected Sanke. After several weeks he is still refusing to eat, but it seems more clear after inspecting his mouth a few days ago. He has ulcers in the mouth and a reddened upper digestive tract. It seems to be slowly healing since the antibiotics, but progress is slow and the fish is weakening.

      Here is a shot of inside the mouth:

      Name:  2017-10-07 13.45.52.jpg
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      I think the ulcers cause enough pain that he doesn't want to close his mouth or take in food. There are small ulcers on the upper and lower so I imagine that causes pain when eating.

      The fish spends some time each day resting on the bottom of the pond, and other times swimming around with the other koi, though clearly weakened.

      At a loss for what to do after antibiotics rounds (twice), today I used the Koi Calculator to help me prepare an Oxolinic Acid Bath. I'm hoping that helps to clean the ulcers in the mouth so healing can speed up before this poor fish dies of starvation.

      Any other suggestions as to what I can do?

    8. #68
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      It appears that the infection is still there and that the antibiotics being administered aren't effective against whatever this is. You mentioned that you did another "round" of injections but earlier, you said you only did one injection. Regardless of how strong you may have thought the antibiotic is, not following through with a full "round" of injections the first time have allowed this infection to continue. Some of the interior tissue actually looks like it's been eaten away. Also, although I'm certainly not a vet, I've never really heard of "dried blood" being under/in the skin tissue. I have seen Ecchymosis before even though this appears differently, but still under the same guise of bleeding under the skin. As it is not exposed to the air, it really isn't dried out but more appearing like a bruising even. It's definitely kinda weird based solely on what we can see and what you've told us. None the less, the real issue is the mouth infection which in many cases, is caused first by Costia.
      Mike

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      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

    9. #69
      Otrex is offline Senior Member
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      This round was two injections, given as per recommended guidelines for maximum dosage (officially a full "series" lists as one or two, depending on the source). Apparently it is one of the most effective antibiotics against a wide range of infection. The first injection was limited to one because the improvement was notable and I was concerned about excessive stress.

      Yes, I say "dried blood" but I'm not sure I mean that, entirely. A nurse described it to me as blood which is being pushed out into the surrounding tissue before the body reabsorbs it. If I understood it correctly, it often happens in humans who are in similar situations and cannot necessarily be taken to mean the patient is "doomed".

      What is alarming, however, is just how long this fish is going without any food consumption. I know they can handle it in the winter, but this fish is moving and burning calories.
      Last edited by Otrex; 10-18-2017 at 06:04 PM.

    10. #70
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      I think I would get the vet involved again, and show him the pictures. It may be that he will want to do a culture and sensitivity test to determine the correct antibiotic for this particular infection. We sometimes find Baytril ineffective and will switch to Amikacin, but they may not be effective for this bacteria.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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    11. #71
      Otrex is offline Senior Member
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      Unfortunately there is no vet in my area that handles koi. So I think a C&S is not possible.

    12. #72
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      Is it possible to get a different antibiotic? The ones that I am familiar with are Baytril and Amikacin. Baytril is 3 shots, one per day, and then 2 more every other day. With Amikacin, I have heard one shot, but have always administered the same as Baytril. Amikacin is harder on the kidneys, but will take care of problems that Baytril doesn't.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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    13. #73
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      You're right Rich, Amikacin is usually given, if vet strength with the same regimen as Baytril. But, I have had great success with a single injection if it is human strength. Hard to say what the issue is here and whether it will be effective but it's worth a try if available up there.
      Mike

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    14. #74
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      Quote Originally Posted by RichToyBox View Post
      Is it possible to get a different antibiotic? The ones that I am familiar with are Baytril and Amikacin. Baytril is 3 shots, one per day, and then 2 more every other day. With Amikacin, I have heard one shot, but have always administered the same as Baytril. Amikacin is harder on the kidneys, but will take care of problems that Baytril doesn't.
      Amikacin may be available. I will check.

      I still have some well-expired Baytril that looks quite acceptable despite the age. I have not yet used it however, because of the sudden availability of the ceftriaxone I mentioned previously.

      About 48 hours ago I did perform an Oxolinic Acid Bath on the Sanke (as per Koiphen Calculator) and I think there is some progress. Hard to say for certain, but it looks like the ulcers may not be getting worse, and maybe even cleaning up a little. The koi spent a longer period of time swimming today and seems to be working its mouth a little bit (though still not closing it all the way).

      I'm going to observe and try the Oxolinic Acid bath again in 2 days.

      Also noticed my lovely Ginrin Chagoi had some kind of ulcer/lesion appear just behind the gill plate. I noticed it 2 days ago, and based on the location, it may have been there for some time since it was almost completely covered. The previous inspection of all the koi about 3 weeks ago did not spot this, so it was either missed, or was not present at that time.

      Today we bowled this Chagoi, carefully cleaned the area not covered by the gill plate (since we did not want to get iodine into the gills), and applied polysporin. This koi was also given the same strong antibiotic that the Sanke received, just as a precaution. This could be a coincidence, and the koi is otherwise completely healthy and happy, but I did not want to take the chance.

      Here is a photo of the Chagoi from today:

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      Last edited by Otrex; 10-22-2017 at 02:37 AM.

    15. #75
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      I have used Baytril that has passed the expiration date by some time and had excellent results. If the oxylinic acid doesn't work, go ahead and treat with the Baytril.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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    16. #76
      Otrex is offline Senior Member
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      Just to update everyone on the continuing saga:

      The Sanke might be making a miracle recovery. This morning he came up to feed and I took the opportunity to dump 4 or 5 pellets directly into his mouth. He kept them down which has been impossible in the past due to his mouth pain. I came back outside for the 2nd and final feeding of the day (decreasing food amounts with declining temps) and this time I poured 10+ pellets and he gulped them and swam off quickly, just like you might expect from a male koi. He kept those down too.

      A quick inspection of the mouth during these opportunities seems to show some dark scar tissue. It is a very fast glance but I think there are less open ulcers, though the skin tissue itself is now blackish-red (possibly scabbing?). I know the koi accepting food suddenly after nearly 4 weeks of refusing it must be a positive sign though. He still swims with his mouth partially open, but I think it is improving as he heals. Certainly he was moving his mouth's "swallowing mechanism" more than before.

      My uneducated guess is that the antibiotics helped to halt the internal bacteria attack before it became septic. But the already-weakened fish was not able to eat due to the pain of the open ulcers in the mouth. The Oxolinic Acid Bath seems to then have addressed those open ulcers and has helped push them far enough towards healing that the fish is able to accept food again, hence a sudden increase in energy and, one might presume, an increase in the ability to heal the ulcers. It's too early to proclaim victory just yet, but I will keep observing and possibly go for an additional Oxolinic Acid bath in the next day or so.

      The chagoi pictured above has had no changes for the better or worse, though he is still aggressively eating and showing normal behaviour. If the damage around his gill doesn't start to heal shortly I think I will opt for the Oxolinic Acid Bath for him too.
      Last edited by Otrex; 10-25-2017 at 10:23 PM.

    17. #77
      Otrex is offline Senior Member
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      Just wanted to post an update here as I have now closed the pond in with the greenhouse cover.

      The Sanke has resumed eating as much as any other fish. Some scarring inside the mouth (looks like dried blood), and still a ragged fin or two, but other than that it now appears normal. I think this Sanke might have been pushed to the brink of going septic but some quick help from a friend and those antibiotic injections (and Oxolinic Acid Bath for the mouth sores) seemed to have turned the tide.

      The chagoi above seems healthy. The sore under the gill was no worse when I last got a good look at him and he was eating normally.

      Now that the greenhouse cover is on it is significantly harder for me to observe and nearly impossible for me to net any of the fish. So I have put them "to bed" with the hope that we knocked back those bacteria attacks far enough that they are going to continue to get better over the winter. Let's hope for the best.

      One thing is for certain: Whatever parasite/bacteria combo it is that found its way into my pond was a doozy. It killed quickly and quietly and I hope to never see it again.
      Last edited by Otrex; 3 Weeks Ago at 11:40 PM.

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