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  • Results 1 to 16 of 16

    Thread: New Guy, Dumb Questions

    1. #1
      eminart's Avatar
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      New Guy, Dumb Questions

      Hey guys,

      I've been reading this forum, off and on, for several months. We bought a new house last year, and I really want to add a nice koi pond to the back yard. But, the more I research, the more questions arise. And, also, it's looking more and more like the cost is going to be a LOT more than I anticipated. I'm very much a DIY guy. Doing the work doesn't scare me, but planning it all correctly is pretty overwhelming. There are just so many different set ups, it's tough to sort through for someone who knows very little.

      So, if I could ask a few direct questions, and get some (fairly) direct answers, that would be a big help.

      1. In ponds with two BD's, are both usually run from the same pump, or two pumps?
      2. If two pumps, do they both go to the same filters/settling tank/whatever?
      3. I'm going to be taking down an above ground pool. Would the multiport sand filter or pump be useful in any way for the pond? I know the pool filter alone won't work. Just wondering if it might be good as a "polisher" or something?


      And lastly, cost. Holy cow. When I first started looking into this (and pitched it to my wife), I thought I could easily do it for less than $2K. That's with me doing all the work, liner pond, DIY filters, etc. What is a realistic cost for a pond, done correctly, in the 5-7000 gal range? Any rough estimates?
      Last edited by eminart; 08-15-2017 at 12:17 PM.

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    2. #2
      audioenvy is offline Supporting Member
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      1. I'm sure you can find a setup where the two BDs each run from their own pump. If you are looking into the 5-7k gallon range then it's fairly easy to find an efficient, economical pump that can pull water from both.
      2. Again, I'm sure you'll find setups (especially big ponds) where there are multiple identical filters but from what I've seen most setups are going to push the water into a single filtration system--but there are filters that actually take two inputs.
      3. I doubt either of the swimming pool items would be helpful

      As for cost... I'm in the middle of a DIY 5500 gallon pond build with the caveat that I'm using a plug-n-play filtration solution provided by Deepwater Koi (Zac Penn) rather than trying to build my own filters out of 55 gallon drums and whatnot. It just didn't seem like a good idea to skimp on the filtration--but that definitely does mean the cost goes up considerably. If you are primarily looking for a garden pond aka water feature with a couple of fish then you can go the cheap route with filtration I suppose. But if you want 10-20 reasonably nice koi that can grow to 20+ inches then you need dedicated koi pond level filtration.

    3. #3
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      One pump is fine. As for costs, check out the S&G filters. If you have the room, you can plumb a few in to handle your volume while keeping costs down. Is it top of the line and automated, no....can it get the job done....yes.



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      Just because its not a Great Koi doesn't mean its not a Great Koi...Me circa 2013

    4. #4
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      First, bottom drains should be gravity fed to a heavy solids mechanical filter. Most prefer either a sieve unit or now, an RDF (rotary drum filter) which is the best of these for removing solids/waste from the water and it does so automatically for the most part. This makes maintenance much easier overall. If a sieve is used, it is recommended to use a secondary fine particulate filter like a pressurized media filter. There are several on the market, my personal/professional favorite is the Ultima II models. ANY of these should be sized to at least double the manufacturers recommendations for filtration. The last unit would be a biological filter. This can be several different types of units with the best being a shower filter, then aerated moving bed filter and finally a static bed bio filter or a sand/gravel unit. The last provide the least amount of efficient biological filtration based on their design and the first two the most bio filtration. The shower and moving bed units are easy to make actually and should, if you're handy, be quite simple to put together. The idea here, overall, is to build the best pond you can the FIRST time. If you don't, you'll spend time/money tearing out the old one and then spending more time/money to build the next one. Many people don't get this concept until they do as they will usually end up building three ponds to get what they wanted in the first place.

      If you do ALL the work yourself, from start to finish and build most all your filtration DIY, to get a well functionining "koi" pond, you'll probably need to spend $5000+ if you included all the rock work, waterfall etc. I know, people are going to say they did it for less, and of course, you might be able to, but many of them are the same ones who brag about how little they spend and then come here for help with either bad design issues or health of fish issues. What goes around comes around in this hobby.

      One thing you really need to decide is whether you want a REAL koi pond, or a pond with plants and a few fish. there's a HUGE difference in the two designs.
      Mike

      check out our website at: http://www.pond-life.net




      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

    5. #5
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      Quote Originally Posted by koiman1950 View Post
      First, bottom drains should be gravity fed to a heavy solids mechanical filter. Most prefer either a sieve unit or now, an RDF (rotary drum filter)
      And these would take the place of a settlement tank, correct?

      As I understand, the basic setups are as follows:

      BD's > Removal of particulates > Bio filter (barrel type) > UV (if used) > pump > pond

      OR

      BD's > Removal of particulates > pump > UV (if used) > Bio filter (shower type) > pond

      Am I on the right track?

      Also, does the skimmer line usually just feed back into the pond?


      And, to clarify, I want to build a pond dedicated to Koi. I don't plan to have plants, other than landscaping on the perimeter.
      Last edited by eminart; 08-15-2017 at 03:13 PM.

    6. #6
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      Quote Originally Posted by eminart View Post
      And these would take the place of a settlement tank, correct?

      As I understand, the basic setups are as follows:

      BD's > Removal of particulates > Bio filter (barrel type) > UV (if used) > pump > pond


      This setup is less commonly used anymore. There are RDF units available that are called "combi" units which house the RDF and bio units within one total housing.


      OR

      BD's > Removal of particulates > pump > UV (if used) > Bio filter (shower type) > pond

      This is becoming the more prevelant design and the UV usually needs to be after the pump for better clarifying results. The tend to restrict flow too much for gravity type usage. There are a few who do this, but, if you're starting out, I would place it after the pump for pressure flow.

      Am I on the right track?

      Yes!

      Also, does the skimmer line usually just feed back into the pond?

      No. In many cases it's fed into the sieve or RDF via gravity, or if on a separate filter circuit, it is pump suction to a pressure filter for mechanical and then to either a waterfall or in-pond returns for proper circulation within the system to aid waste being moved to the bottom drains for removal.


      And, to clarify, I want to build a pond dedicated to Koi. I don't plan to have plants, other than landscaping on the perimeter.
      Okay! Now you're really on the right track!lol But, you probably just increased your budget as well!lol

      BTW, none of these are "dumb" questions. Those would only be the ones you don't ask!
      Mike

      check out our website at: http://www.pond-life.net




      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

    7. #7
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      Thanks for the help, Mike (and everyone else). I'm going to run the new cost estimates by the wife and see if I also have to factor in the cost of divorce. If not, I'm sure I'll be back with more questions.

      Thanks again!

    8. #8
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      Hello Mr. eminart, I asked the exact same question a few years back. What?! Ten years ago?! Wow. Okay, anyway... I built a pond on a budget that is designed for koi with plants and landscaping around the outside. I started with a system of barrels like you describe and eventually (now) have a sieve filter that is supplied by the bottom drain and skimmer and pumped to the tpr's, sand and gravel barrel and a feather rock trickle tower.

      When designing the pond I made decisions that helped with cost. Probably the most important decision was size of pond. By keeping it 8x12 feet I could use one bottom drain, one 55 gallon settlement tank, one skimmer and one pump. The total gallons is about 3,400 and I'm hosting 8 large koi. (My goal was 5 mature koi but not as many died as I thought would).

      Check out my pond build thread for a pictoral journey of what you might be looking at. I calculated my cost back then to be roughly $4,500 for the pond and another $3k for the deck. Oh yeah, a couple hunert for plants, the cetus was an addition $1700, and the fireplace, deck furniture, etc................

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...e-s-Pond-Build

      steve
      Last edited by Pond James_Pond; 08-16-2017 at 01:35 PM.

    9. #9
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      Thanks, Steve!

      That actually is pretty similar to what I had in mind, as far as the layout and your deck area. We already have a patio that I plan to cover. I was thinking of adding a fireplace like you have also.

      We have a pond store in my home town. I'm going to take a trip over there soon and ask more questions and maybe figure some things out.

    10. #10
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      Geez, "a pond store" is most likely supplied with Aquascape type supplies and products. Oh, and the sales people know less than you do about building a real koi pond. There's more info here in the stickies in the construction forum than you'll find anywhere on the net or in any single persons head. I would really urge you to spend that "shopping" time doing some reading about design concepts and filtration. Ask us any questions you may have. We've all been there and done that, some much more than others, but you'll find a level of trust in some. Move forward with them.
      Mike

      check out our website at: http://www.pond-life.net




      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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    11. #11
      hp is offline Senior Member
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      Your budget of $2K for 5-7000 gallon is low, even with you doing all the work, and DYI filter system.
      1. Draft a design/drawing. Then go read some of the DYI filter systems in the construction forum and select the one that you like. Finalize your drawing/set up.
      2. Cost estimate:
      a. I assume you use EPDM liner. The 45mil EPDM is around $1/sqft. Based on your drawing, you can figure out how many sqft you need. Get a quote to be sure. You also need underlayment to protect the liner. I see people use old free carpet!
      b. Pump: pick a pump based on your pond volume and turnover rate. Make sure to calculate the dynamic head, and don’t take actual rating from the spec, derate it little bit.
      c. Plumping. Based on the drawing, you can estimate the size of the pipeline, the total length, number of elbows, number of valves. Then you can estimate the cost by checking price at store. I did not realize how expensive this can be when you go to 3” or 4” setup!!! And that is what you will need for this pond size.
      d. Bottom drain, skimmer
      e. Filter: If you go with DYI filter, figure out what container you use. What filter media you plan to use.. Estimate the cost from there..
      f. Decorative rock: Do you plan to have rocks in your design? They are not cheap. Most rocks are sold by pounds!! If you have time, check out website like Craigslist for re-sale rocks.
      g. Landscaping – could be expensive
      h. Fishes? 
      i. Other mis-items
      j. Add total cost, plus 20% for reserve 

    12. #12
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      Quote Originally Posted by koiman1950 View Post
      Geez, "a pond store" is most likely supplied with Aquascape type supplies and products. Oh, and the sales people know less than you do about building a real koi pond. There's more info here in the stickies in the construction forum than you'll find anywhere on the net or in any single persons head. I would really urge you to spend that "shopping" time doing some reading about design concepts and filtration. Ask us any questions you may have. We've all been there and done that, some much more than others, but you'll find a level of trust in some. Move forward with them.
      Firstly, I think the pond store here is probably much better than you're imagining. They have some gorgeous, large koi, several ponds, and lots of equipment. Secondly, I've been reading the stickies, archives, and browsing the forum for a long time. I can take a short break from it, rush to the pond store, then come back for more reading. Seeing how some of the filtration works first hand would be a big help when I'm poring over all the schematics on this forum. And, I'd like to see what they carry in the way of pumps and filters. I understand this forum is a wealth of knowledge, and I'd definitely take the consensus opinion here over that of any one person at my pond store. I'm still in the very early planning stages.

    13. #13
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      Quote Originally Posted by haivph View Post
      Your budget of $2K for 5-7000 gallon is low, even with you doing all the work, and DYI filter system.

      Yeah, that estimate was before I started to really look into it.

      Thanks for list. I'm going to start trying to fill in those blanks soon.

    14. #14
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      The 800-lb gorilla in the room is that a properly-constructed koi pond system - the definition of which changes month to month - is very expensive. The reason pond stores/HD/Lowes sell what they do is because that's what people can afford. Imagine if Home Depot advertised a 6000-gallon koi pond system for only $39,999 installed; how many people would buy one? Most people have no idea just how big a deal a proper pond is (read:one where the fish thrive and which doesn't require constant maintenance) and just pick up a $200 boxed system on a whim. It's like people who buy a puppy at the mall because their kid wanted one, having no idea what they're getting into.

      Here, experts will tell you it must be a particular way, which will no doubt result in the best system possible - and cost you a fortune. It comes down to you deciding where on the scale you want to be, buying a $200 "system" that'll quickly turn green and the fish die within months, to a $$$$$ system that runs virtually hands-off where the fish thrive. You can cut expenses way down by doing some or all of the work yourself, which as suggested, means doing your research upfront. This should be done anyway even if a contractor does the work as that way you'll know what he's talking about and whether it'll result in what you want.

      Bottom line, take a year to research pond systems, then decide.
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    15. #15
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      Quote Originally Posted by kimini View Post
      ...Imagine if Home Depot advertised a 6000-gallon koi pond system for only $39,999 installed; how many people would buy one?
      A local pond store here, Russell Watergardens, did just that. On their property they had several display ponds from water gardens to full blown koi ponds. They even had a hybrid pond for those tweeners. The price on a ~6000 koi pond was somewhere around $30k! And they had a $10,000 Showa ready to throw in there!

      They closed their store and are an online retailer of pond supplies and cleaning services only now. Maybe they didn't get too many requests for thirty thousand dollar koi ponds?

      steve

    16. #16
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      Quote Originally Posted by eminart View Post
      Firstly, I think the pond store here is probably much better than you're imagining. They have some gorgeous, large koi, several ponds, and lots of equipment. Secondly, I've been reading the stickies, archives, and browsing the forum for a long time. I can take a short break from it, rush to the pond store, then come back for more reading. Seeing how some of the filtration works first hand would be a big help when I'm poring over all the schematics on this forum. And, I'd like to see what they carry in the way of pumps and filters. I understand this forum is a wealth of knowledge, and I'd definitely take the consensus opinion here over that of any one person at my pond store. I'm still in the very early planning stages.
      Well, when folks say "pond store" most of here think "Aquascape type" stores. Sounds like what you're referring to is a full blown koi shop. I'll be interested to see what they offer after your journey there.
      Mike

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