"Surprise" Kois, and need some help

[hp]

I came home from work last Friday and saw these two big kois, ~25" kohaku and ~27" Aka Matsuba in the pond . My wife, with my brother's help, surprised me with these.

I really like most of these kois but they are kind of expensive for a rookie like me. And I don't feel like I am ready for them yet. So, I did not buy any and stay with my plan to start slow until I am ready.

Well, here is the problem: They brought the fishes home and dropped in the pond The matsuba has been doing OK, swimming around and start eating. The Kohaku has some issue. It's not very active. Its lays down at the bottom for little while, then swimming around, and came up the surface, with half of his head above the water like to gasp for air, then come down, and lay at the bottom again. It's been doing that for last 3 days. It seems to do better (swimming more often), but still not normal. All my other fishes are doing OK, no sign of issue.

My question is: do you think the Kohaku behavior is due to stress of moving, and new environment, and need to give itmore time to adjust? Or do you think it may have some other issue? Any advices or your similar past experiences from everyone is greatly appreciated.

I test the water regularly and PH: ~7.5, Ammonia < 0.25, Nitrite = 0, Nitrate = 0, KH 6drops.




hp.

[koiman1950]

The well intentions of others who know very little can be problematic for the keeper. You're right in your line of thinking about waiting until you learn more, but you have problem to deal with now with the kohaku. It appears quite stressed and is also trying to adjust it's swim bladder. This might go away on it's own, or it could have possibly been damaged during handling/transport from the old owner's pond to yours. Fish this big take special skill to be handled properly. The "congestion" I see in the tail and pec fins is due in part to a need for oxygen and also stress. Hopefully it will recover in the next few days.

[cindy]

Nice present and beautiful but adding right to the pond was a mistake that hopefully won't end up badly.

I'd start with a good water change with a binder and get ready just in case. If you don't have Proform C and Prazi and first aid supplies on the list, now would be a good time to get stuff together.

When existing fish and new fish are put together, bacteria and parasites that they can normally handle take advantage when a fish's immune system is compromised. Add in that IF these fish weren't handled correctly, (moved in bags with water and then floated to match temps) the netting process could have done damage.

[RichToyBox]

Mike's comment about a need for oxygen leads me to a question. What kind and amount of aeration do you have? With the level of your KH, with good aeration to drive off carbon dioxide, your pH should probably be closer to 8.3. To be this low with a KH this high, indicates that their is excess carbon dioxide, which will affect the ability of the fish to expel carbon dioxide making room for oxygen.

[nmtsaki]

Now, when I have a KH of 6 drops, my fish start showing distress (piping a bit). I keep mine about 8-10. That's the only parameter that ever seems to be out of my usual range when testing and observing this behavior. When I add a cup of baking soda (along with binder, always, just a habit), they calm down. Maybe because that's my normal range? For me, it seems the KH goes down rapidly at this point in my particular set up.

Just as an aside, I notice there is ammonia of >0.25 - do you see any green? The presence of ammonia could be causing issues; also shouldn't thee be some nitrate value in an established pond? How long has your pond been cycled? Just observations, as I believe the "plopping in" is the main issue.

Plus, I highly advise getting your medicine chest ready, as Cindy advised. Without a good quarantine period, your new (and old) fish may be up for some issues. If not, you haventhe rightnstuff ready if something does come up.

What type of ammonia binder do you have on hand? I recommend SAFE by seachem (the powdered form of Prime, by the same company). Always good to have on hand also, in that "medicine chest". It's also a dechlorinator for when you add water.

Nice looking fish, I hope everyone makes it.

[hp]

Thanks Mike, Cindy, Rich and nmtsaki.

For the PH, it's either 7.5 or 8. I find it little challenge to read the color chart for pH. I am buying a meter and that will give me a better reading.
For ammonia, it's less than 0.25. It's yellow on the color chart. I think it's impossible to be zero, that's why I said less than 0.25ppm. I don't have ammonia binder currently. I will consider buying some just incase I need it. The pond has been running for a full year now. But with the long winter here, the effective time is probably much less than that. The water is not supper clear but not green. I can see the bottom with ~4ft deep. I have a bog with a lot of water lettuce. Maybe that helps to keep the nitrate so low?

For aeration, I mainly rely on the ~40ft stream with total of ~5ft water fall. I also have couple water jet to circulate the water. However, since I had these fishes last Friday, I started to run an air pump (AquaScape Pond Air pump with 1010 GPH) to get more aeration.

I have been changing water around 20% weekly. This week, I do about 10% daily water change to make sure the water quality is good. I do have dechlorinator.

I have Proform-C that I bought in late May. I am out of Kusuri Fluke-M and I am ordering more. I am thinking to just treat the pond with 3 treatments of preform-C, and add Fluke-M to the last treatment this weekend. Hopefully this will help prevent parasite or fluke outbreak due to their immune system is compromised. Is there any downside for just blindly treating the pond without scrap and scope?

Thanks again for your help.

hp.

[KoiRun]

Now, when I have a KH of 6 drops, my fish start showing distress (piping a bit). I keep mine about 8-10. That's the only parameter that ever seems to be out of my usual range when testing and observing this behavior. When I add a cup of baking soda (along with binder, always, just a habit), they calm down. Maybe because that's my normal range? For me, it seems the KH goes down rapidly at this point in my particular set up.

Just as an aside, I notice there is ammonia of >0.25 - do you see any green? The presence of ammonia could be causing issues; also shouldn't thee be some nitrate value in an established pond? How long has your pond been cycled? Just observations, as I believe the "plopping in" is the main issue.

Plus, I highly advise getting your medicine chest ready, as Cindy advised. Without a good quarantine period, your new (and old) fish may be up for some issues. If not, you haventhe rightnstuff ready if something does come up.

What type of ammonia binder do you have on hand? I recommend SAFE by seachem (the powdered form of Prime, by the same company). Always good to have on hand also, in that "medicine chest". It's also a dechlorinator for when you add water.

Nice looking fish, I hope everyone makes it.

Nmtsaki, Im interested in how you decided that kh of 8-10 drops is a good range for your set-up? I guess 8 drops is far away from 6 drops where you see a little piping. How long have you maintained KH in this range? Pardon me for asking and side-tracking. Haivph, congratulations on your very nice gifts and I hope every thing goes well, a lot of caring members here on KP will always have your back.

[koiman1950]

Thanks Mike, Cindy, Rich and nmtsaki.

For the PH, it's either 7.5 or 8. I find it little challenge to read the color chart for pH. I am buying a meter and that will give me a better reading.
For ammonia, it's less than 0.25. It's yellow on the color chart. I think it's impossible to be zero, that's why I said less than 0.25ppm. I don't have ammonia binder currently. I will consider buying some just incase I need it. The pond has been running for a full year now. But with the long winter here, the effective time is probably much less than that. The water is not supper clear but not green. I can see the bottom with ~4ft deep. I have a bog with a lot of water lettuce. Maybe that helps to keep the nitrate so low?

For aeration, I mainly rely on the ~40ft stream with total of ~5ft water fall. I also have couple water jet to circulate the water. However, since I had these fishes last Friday, I started to run an air pump (AquaScape Pond Air pump with 1010 GPH) to get more aeration.

I have been changing water around 20% weekly. This week, I do about 10% daily water change to make sure the water quality is good. I do have dechlorinator.

I have Proform-C that I bought in late May. I am out of Kusuri Fluke-M and I am ordering more. I am thinking to just treat the pond with 3 treatments of preform-C, and add Fluke-M to the last treatment this weekend. Hopefully this will help prevent parasite or fluke outbreak due to their immune system is compromised. Is there any downside for just blindly treating the pond without scrap and scope?

Thanks again for your help.

hp.

First, your chlorine treatment will usually bind the residual ammonia from the source water or any unbound ammonia within the system for 24-48 hrs. No need to buy any other product for this. You seem to have a fairly good handle on you water, but your aeration was definitely lacking. I don't understand the rating you provided for that Aquascape air pump at 1010gph. Any air pumps I've ever seen are rated in lph or litres per hour. So, what type of diffuser(s) are you using with it to raise the DO?

Don't do a shotgun treatment with a bunch of chemicals just yet. The fish are quite stressed from being handled/transported and placed in a new environment. And unless you have a LOT of water lettuce, I doubt it really has much to do with your Nitrate levels. Nancy asked and I'm wondering as I truly have never seen a pond that had ZERO Nitrates that was fully functioning filter-wise.

[hp]

First, your chlorine treatment will usually bind the residual ammonia from the source water or any unbound ammonia within the system for 24-48 hrs. No need to buy any other product for this. You seem to have a fairly good handle on you water, but your aeration was definitely lacking. I don't understand the rating you provided for that Aquascape air pump at 1010gph. Any air pumps I've ever seen are rated in lph or litres per hour. So, what type of diffuser(s) are you using with it to raise the DO?

Don't do a shotgun treatment with a bunch of chemicals just yet. The fish are quite stressed from being handled/transported and placed in a new environment. And unless you have a LOT of water lettuce, I doubt it really has much to do with your Nitrate levels. Nancy asked and I'm wondering as I truly have never seen a pond that had ZERO Nitrates that was fully functioning filter-wise.

Mike,
I use this air pump. They said it's 1010GPH. When I see you reply, I then checked on amazon, it rates only 0.28CFM which is much lower than 1010GPH. So, not sure which one is correct.

http://www.aquaticponds.com/AquaScap...PH_p_2131.html

https://www.amazon.com/Aquascape-750.../dp/B0078LTKM8

For nitrate, I know it's not going to be zero. I just simplified it because the when the strip test show the first color. (The bog is ~6ft diameter which is ~28sqft and it's fully cover with water lettuce.

Ok, I delay treatment and monitor their behavior and go from there.

hp.

[nmtsaki]

Based upon what others have reported. Many keep it in the range of 150-200 dh (dh = degree of hardness scale, = 17 /1 drop of KH) 150/17 = 8.8; 200/17 =12. Some will go up as high as 300 dh, which leaves room for error. I keep in the lower mid range. Just what I (and my koi) are used to. I hope this helps.

Nmtsaki, Im interested in how you decided that kh of 8-10 drops is a good range for your set-up? I guess 8 drops is far away from 6 drops where you see a little piping. How long have you maintained KH in this range? Pardon me for asking and side-tracking. Haivph, congratulations on your very nice gifts and I hope every thing goes well, a lot of caring members here on KP will always have your back.

[cindy]

Mike,
I use this air pump. They said it's 1010GPH. When I see you reply, I then checked on amazon, it rates only 0.28CFM which is much lower than 1010GPH. So, not sure which one is correct.

http://www.aquaticponds.com/AquaScap...PH_p_2131.html

https://www.amazon.com/Aquascape-750.../dp/B0078LTKM8

For nitrate, I know it's not going to be zero. I just simplified it because the when the strip test show the first color. (The bog is ~6ft diameter which is ~28sqft and it's fully cover with water lettuce.

Ok, I delay treatment and monitor their behavior and go from there.

hp.

How are they today?

[koiman1950]

Trust the .28l/m info. That other is not valid.

[hp]

How are they today?

Cindy,
The kohaku is doing better. it's swimming more often. Yesterday and today, it came up and eating little bit when I feed them. So, it does show sign of improving. so, I am hopeful.

hp.

[OCkoiFan]

Yup water qualities are extremely important right now. Make them feel like their real home

[hp]

The well intentions of others who know very little can be problematic for the keeper. You're right in your line of thinking about waiting until you learn more, but you have problem to deal with now with the kohaku. It appears quite stressed and is also trying to adjust it's swim bladder. This might go away on it's own, or it could have possibly been damaged during handling/transport from the old owner's pond to yours. Fish this big take special skill to be handled properly. The "congestion" I see in the tail and pec fins is due in part to a need for oxygen and also stress. Hopefully it will recover in the next few days.

So, it's been couple months and the Kohaku is still the same, not any better . I talked to a few people and they also think the swimming bladder was probably damaged. Based on your experience:
1. What is the likely hood it will get better and swim somewhat normal again?
2. Can it survive for a "long" time or not? It doesn't really eat, so, I don't know how long it will survive. It came up and eat for 2 or 3 weeks (when it eats, it swim vertically). It has not eaten for sometimes (even when the temp was still in upper 60s in September) but it looks still the same, nothing change.

I am not sure what to do with it at this point. As long as it is healthy and lives, then I just keep it. I worry that it just lays at the bottom most of the time, it will get ulcer and create problem for it and other fishes.

hp.

[koiman1950]

I hate it when things like this happen. Not being able to see the fish in person, it's really difficult to tell enough to answer your question with any real substance. I would just be guessing, but unfortunately, that's nearly the best anyone can do from a pic on the internet. You appear to live near icu2/Steve. Any chance he or someone with a LOT of experience can come over and take a look in person?