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    Thread: Matt's Showa Spawn 2017

    1. #41
      Matt24's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by dragonfly1976 View Post
      Matt, I believe Wayne1 said in another thread that crossing Showa x Showa will get you a lot more deformities. It seems to only happen with this breed. If you have a Shiro to breed them with next time you will likely get better results. Roger also had a thread where he bred A Shiro with a Showa and got great results.
      I was not aware of that Dragonfly. And I am a little surprised, having spawned showa twice before with nowhere near this many deformities. Maybe I was just lucky and that luck has run out. Perhaps Delbert can give his thoughts on the prevalence of showa X showa deformities, since he has spawned showa several times. Others here have spawned showa to showa as well and may be able to tell of their experience. Sounds like Orlando is having similar experience with shiro utsuri. I may have an opportunity to introduce a shiro utsuri to the mix in future years, as I am watching a few grow up from previous spawns.

      Quote Originally Posted by dragonfly1976 View Post
      ... I would put them in a clear container much sooner so you can inspect for deformities. They will be easily seen and you won't have to waste space with the culls.
      I definitely agree. Maybe not in the first 3 weeks of so since they are so small, but after that, certainly. This was my first time to use a little aquarium, but I plan to make it a regular deal going forward.

    2. #42
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      New finding: The little koi love almost all the seafood mixes, but there are some recipes they are not crazy about. Over the last three seasons, I have boosted the growth of my little koi by feeding them over a dozen different combinations of these ingredients blended into different frozen mixes: tuna, mackerel, herring, sardines, salmon, clams, shrimp, English peas, pumpkin, garlic, and koi pellets.

      They have really torn it up and grown very well, but I finally made one they don't care for so much. It was a simple mix of mackerel 56% and tuna 44%. I'm not sure what ingredients made the difference in their appetites, but every other batch had some veggies (English peas, pumpkin, or both), and every other batch but one had some salmon.

      When I saw they were very slow at eating the mackerel-tuna mix, I blended up a mix of tuna 31%, sardines 23%, salmon 23%, and pumpkin 23%. They have really been putting that one away! I can put a chunk of each mix on a plate, and they will eat about 4 of the tuna-sardine-salmon-pumpkin chunks by the time they finish the mackerel-tuna chunk. So if your little koi are not just gobbling up your mix, tweak the recipe a bit.
      Last edited by Matt24; 07-04-2017 at 10:09 AM. Reason: Boldfaced key points.

    3. #43
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      Quote Originally Posted by dragonfly1976 View Post
      Matt, I believe Wayne1 said in another thread that crossing Showa x Showa will get you a lot more deformities. It seems to only happen with this breed. If you have a Shiro to breed them with next time you will likely get better results. Roger also had a thread where he bred A Shiro with a Showa and got great results. As far as deformities, I would put them in a clear container much sooner so you can inspect for deformities. They will be easily seen and you won't have to waste space with the culls.

      I have been breeding Showa to Showa for a while also . With all the crossing it took to get a Showa . every fry can't come out perfect .

      I haven't noticed excessive deformities so much . What I do get is a lot of every thing else and a few of the Showa I really want .

      I would be thinking its more about weather conditions during the hatching days , not sure why but it all ways wants to change fast after the spawn . Just my 2 cents



    4. #44
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      Thanks Delbert. Looks like for some reason, showa spawns sometimes have lots of deformities and sometimes don't. After reading Dragonfly's note, I did some forum searching and found some interesting stuff.

      In the 2009 post linked below, Russ Peters relayed the view of Toshio Sakai that showa can get more deformities, especially with the head, but they usually do not have those deformities from the beginning. Unlike most koi that are culled after several weeks, showa are typically culled at around 4 days old when they are less developed and more pliable. So they must be handled very carefully to avoid causing deformities.
      http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...toshio+pliable
      [On the other hand, some breeders say they don't cull showa early and still get lots of deformities.]

      I don't know, but here is a summary of my limited experience: In 2015, my showa x showa spawn had few deformities (no more than my spawns of other varieties in previous years), but I did not cull much at all until 50 days. In 2016 my showa x showa spawn also had few deformities. That year I culled (using nets) on day 12, but with warm weather and a small spawn, they were probably more developed than most fry are at 12 days. In 2017 my showa x showa spawn had a whole lot of head deformities. I did about 80% of the culling at 18-25 days. With an early large spawn and unusually cool weather, they were probably less developed than most fry are at that age.

      Correct me if I am remembering wrong Delbert, but though you usually cull all except the black fry, you use a dipping device that is easier on the fry. Also I am not sure if you typically cull as early as the first week, but maybe when they are a little larger.

      I also found a couple of posts (one linked below) where, as Dragonfly mentioned, Wayne1 recommended breeding shiro utsuri males to a showa female because showa X showa tends to have lots of deformities, few showa, and low quality kohaku and shiro utsuri with little orange spots.
      http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...ect-no-2/page4

      I don't know if it helps with deformities, but I should note that in 2016 and 2017, the female I used is "barely a showa". I got her in a good deal second hand. The original owner said he bought her as a high quality Omosako shiro utsuri. But when the sumi receded a little, it revealed some orange underneath, not what he wanted to see.
      Last edited by Matt24; 07-04-2017 at 01:04 PM.

    5. #45
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      Matt, verrrry interesting. so, this high number of deformities -- some of the time -- is genetic after all? Because you didn't handle your fry at that very young and pliable age?
      Last edited by Koigrl; 07-04-2017 at 11:28 PM.



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    6. #46
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      Good info Matt
      As bad as my eyes are getting with little things I could have a lot more deformed fish. lol
      When your just trying to separate black and white it's not that hard to do.



    7. #47
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      Quote Originally Posted by Koigrl View Post
      Matt, verrrry interesting. so, this high number of deformities -- some of the time -- is genetic after all? Because you didn't handle your fry at that very young and pliable age?
      I'm not sure. Due to the cold weather, the fry might not have developed past the “pliable” stage. One of the reasons I did not cull for black at around 4-5 days old was that the water had cooled from the lower 60's to 54 F. At those temps, they did not seem developed enough to easily tell the black from the yellow. On day 12, the water was only 57 F, and the fry were still just 1/4” to 3/8”. At day 17, the water was 60 F. So while at the time of most of the culling (18-25 days), the water temp was in the mid 60's, the fry had very little time above 60 F for growth. Even by 30 days, well after this culling, most were still just 1/2” to 5/8”.

      One reason I doubt that the cause of the 2017 deformities is genetic, or at least entirely genetic, is that there were few deformities last year, using the same female and two of the same males.

      One difference was that last year's hatch was in late June with water in the mid 70's. I don't know if the much cooler weather this year had any effect on deformities.

      Another difference is that, due to my mistakes, the hatch rate in 2016 was very low, fewer than 200. Unless the deformed ones failed to hatch at a much higher rate than those not deformed, then the low rate of 2016 deformities seems to indicate that the 2017 problems are either not genetic or not entirely genetic.
      Last edited by Matt24; 07-05-2017 at 02:32 PM.

    8. #48
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      Quote Originally Posted by delbert View Post
      ... As bad as my eyes are getting with little things I could have a lot more deformed fish. lol ...
      Well, If you aren't showing them or selling them, the main criteria is "whatever looks good to you".

    9. #49
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      Matt, in reading the Wayne post I'm reminded of how little we know about the genetics of our parent fish. Adds to the fun and crap-shoot nature of our chosen "hobby."
      How are your 60 doing?



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    10. #50
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      Quote Originally Posted by Koigrl View Post
      ... crap-shoot nature of our chosen "hobby."
      And as I shoot for the moon, that's mostly what I shoot!

      Quote Originally Posted by Koigrl View Post
      How are your 60 doing?
      Wolfin' down their new recipe ... frozen chunk after frozen chunk. Growing well at 76 F, thanks. I keep wanting pull 'em out and give 'em another exam, but I stop myself and say, "No rush. It's down to just 60. Give 'em more time. Things will be clearer then."

    11. #51
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      This morning, I reduced the numbers to the low 30's. Not seeing any showa at this point that look all that promising, though there is one ginrin that may be decent. There are about three rather interesting looking black and grey ones that I suspect will turn out to be shiro utsuri. Two of them are ginrin. There is a decent little kin showa with just a little orange on head. The rest are long-shots. At 81 days, they range from 1.5” to 3.75” with most 1.75” to 2.75”, up maybe 1/2” in last 2 weeks on average. Due to a thunderstorm moving in and low light level, I hurried selected ones back into the pond and took no photos.

    12. #52
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      Matt, the way i remember it, the wind comes right behind the rain!
      (we also got hit with a flash storm. And it got me. )
      i would like to see pictures when the sun comes out.



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    13. #53
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      Quote Originally Posted by Matt24 View Post
      And as I shoot for the moon, that's mostly what I shoot!

      LOL


      Wolfin' down their new recipe ... frozen chunk after frozen chunk. Growing well at 76 F, thanks. I keep wanting pull 'em out and give 'em another exam, but I stop myself and say, "No rush. It's down to just 60. Give 'em more time. Things will be clearer then."
      ,

      --- Correct. Hard to wait, tho...



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    14. #54
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      Outside of experience gained and some fun, this 2017 spawn was basically a big ZERO, almost entirely due to head deformities, but I wanted to post a final report:

      It's hard to accept that your babies are ugly. When I was seeing a whole lot of head deformities early on, my mind wanted to hope that it was only 75% of them. But after I would grow the others out for a few more weeks and would look again, more head deformities had become clear, and this process would repeat. Over several weeks, I slowly came to grips with the fact that it's not 75%, it's 85%, no wait it's 95%, no it's .... Before I went out for the last examination, I had finally accepted that it might be all of them. After 3 1/2 months of good growth, with them being 2.5” - 5.25” (most 3.5” - 4.5”), it should be easy to tell ... and it was. Every one of them was deformed with pinched in cheeks and down turned mouths, the same thing I'd been seeing all summer. (Rather baffling since, as mentioned in previous posts, I have 4 well shaped one-year-olds from the 2016 spawn that had very few deformities using the same female and two of the same males.) I only kept one shiro utsuri that was not quite as deformed as the others, mainly to be a companion for a new little ginrin showa that I bought.

      As for other qualities besides head deformities, there were not many deformities in this spawn. There had been several utsuri and a very small number of showa and kin showa that had good patterns. Several of the utsuri and showa had nice ginrin.

      I will probably try spawning a different group next year, maybe kohaku. I've got a fairly good female kohaku and a good male, plus I got a great deal the other day on a second-hand male that is pretty nice. These three each have good red and stout bodies, though they each have one or two tiny black dots that have come up. But that does not bother me. I may include my red showa male and/or the second-hand red sanke male that I picked up when I got that kohaku male. Lot's of time between now and spring to think about that ....
      Last edited by Matt24; 08-02-2017 at 10:42 AM.

    15. #55
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      Dang Matt ... That's a whole lot of ugly .
      It's better to call it early before you put in all your time and food .

      Hope for a better mix next spring.



    16. #56
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      Matt, I empathize and sympathize, too. I too have had bad news spawn w/ good parents who gave me good fish before. Next year could be a bonanza year for you. :roller coaster:. Mother nature rules and sometimes she gives us a good spawn! You did your best and had every reason to expect good results and we all learned that showa x showa can be dicey!!!
      Last edited by Koigrl; 08-02-2017 at 06:52 PM.



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    17. #57
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      I'm going to share some of my findings to give Matt some comfort I only ended with 32 out of 2k plus fry SU Cross and my culls had the exact same deformities he experienced with his.
      Last edited by Orlando; 08-02-2017 at 08:54 PM.

    18. #58
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      Quote Originally Posted by delbert View Post
      Dang Matt ... That's a whole lot of ugly .
      It's better to call it early before you put in all your time and food .
      Amen to that Delbert! Seems weird to not be feeding baby fish in August.

      Quote Originally Posted by Koigrl View Post
      ... I too have had bad news spawn w/ good parents who gave me good fish before. ... we all learned that showa x showa can be dicey!!!
      Thanks Max. It's amazing how much results can differ, even with the same adults. I'm not sure I've found a variety that isn't dicey, but my showa seem unpredictable. I now actually have more koi in my ponds from my 2015 showa spawn, than from my other 5 spawns combined (2 of which were showa spawns).

      Quote Originally Posted by Orlando View Post
      I'm going to share some of my findings to give Matt some comfort I only ended with 32 out of 2k plus fry SU Cross and my culls had the exact same deformities he experienced with his.
      Thanks for that information Orlando. I gather from your comments that you bred Shiro Utsuri to Shiro Utsuri and got lots of the pinched cheeks head deformities. Very odd. I've seen spawns with lots of deformities before, but never this many or this particular type of deformity. My previous two showa spawns had no such issue.

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