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    Thread: Ben's Pond build thread. Minneapolis. Airlift, BE RDF. Block w Xypex.

    1. #21
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      In these pics there is no mud yet. As I am dry stacking the block the only thing I need to mortar to do is set the bed for the first course.
      I was shocked this morning when I went down into the hole to check things out that any mortar splatter that needed to be cleaned up just popped off with a putty knife. Like no adhesion at all. Of course all of the blocks that I have set in the bed of mortar got tamped and wiggled and set pretty firmly. Maybe that helps.

      I have been doing some online research and wonder if for the second half of this job if I should add an extra shovel of Portland cement to each bag of sack mason mix.

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      If the blocks aren't made wet (I tend to pre-wet them) cement doesn't really want to stick to them.
      Author of Midlana, Build this High Performance Mid-engine Sports Car. http://midlana.com/stuff/book

    3. #23
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      Quote Originally Posted by mplskoi View Post
      In these pics there is no mud yet. As I am dry stacking the block the only thing I need to mortar to do is set the bed for the first course.
      I was shocked this morning when I went down into the hole to check things out that any mortar splatter that needed to be cleaned up just popped off with a putty knife. Like no adhesion at all. Of course all of the blocks that I have set in the bed of mortar got tamped and wiggled and set pretty firmly. Maybe that helps.

      I have been doing some online research and wonder if for the second half of this job if I should add an extra shovel of Portland cement to each bag of sack mason mix.
      Ah, okay. I'll be interested to see how this works. I've only seen one (Zac I think) build one dry stacked with Xypex but he used SBC on both sides too.
      Are you planning to use SBC too or just Xypex? Somehow I missed that part of the thread...

      Edit: Found it in the previous thread... I'm hoping one side of SBC is enough.
      --Steve



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    4. #24
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      Quote Originally Posted by kimini View Post
      If the blocks aren't made wet (I tend to pre-wet them) cement doesn't really want to stick to them.
      So I have done a fair bit of online research this afternoon as to why it wasn't sticking well. My blocks were damp and also the slab was.
      What I think I did wrong was not mix it long enough. There were many pros who said that one of the big mistakes with masonry mud is not mixing it long enough. They say it needs to stay in the mixer up to 15 minutes and then let it sit 5 and then mix another 5. I mixed with a hoe in a wheelbarrow for 5-10. Apparently this muds really needs the whipping or air entrainment to get it to be sticky.
      So now I need to figure out if not being sticky during application means not being sticky over the long haul? Or does it build strength and adhesion over time.
      I have about 20 blocks set, 20 to go. Won't work seriously on this until Friday. I think I should do a "kick test" and if they fail I knock those 20 out and start over. Assumably if they knock of then the mortar bed will also knock off of the slab too. If adhesion is really poor I may be able to knock these blocks off and knock mortar off base in an hour or two and start over.
      RichToyBox- will you weigh in on this?

    5. #25
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      I don't know the proportions for mortar, but I do know that in the days of old, the mix was quick lime, cement and sand. The quick lime (calcium oxide) would burn you due to its desire to get wet, would be slaked overnight to get it completely wetted. Today, I am sure that the mixes are using hydrated lime, (calcium hydroxide) which will still burn due to high pH. It is the lime that provides the stickiness. The cement provides the strength, so if it bonded, it will be good. I would not be too concerned over the bond to the bottom, but more concerned about getting the vertical steel imbedded, which will provide both shear resistance, like bonded block, and bending resistance from the weight of the water trying to tip the wall over. I am not sure which is the higher stress, but the rebar provides both, once embedded in concrete mix within the voids of the block.
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    6. #26
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      Thanks Rich. I have vertical rebar every other hole going into the slab. I am going to have both the first and second course have horizontal. Then every other on the way up. Also I have cut such deep notches in the second course of block that it is virtually a bond beam.
      I will wait until Friday and give them a good test. If they pop loose with just a kick then I will take them all out and redo. Otherwise gonna hope they are ok.

    7. #27
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      The blocks passed the kick test. I feel a lot better about things today. That non sticky masonry mix sure bugged me.
      A few things I learned about masonry mud:
      1-Mix it for at least 10 minutes. I bought a mixer and mixed it that way rather than in a wheelbarrow by hand. The longer it mixes the better the consistency gets. (Obviously to a point- don't over mix) It will start rolling of the paddles and adhering to itself making it kind of "snake" of the mixer paddle. Now it is good mud.
      2- add a little portland cement to bag mix. I put in about 3 pounds per 80 pound sack. The consistency seemed better this way. Add the portland first to the water so that it ends up evenly spread throughout the mix.

      As of tonight my entire first course is done. I also spread a little mud next to the base of the wall on the floor of the pond. This will help me from having a dead spot next to the wall- seems like if fish poo is going to accumulate anywhere it is in a corner.
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      Last edited by mplskoi; 11-27-2017 at 11:31 PM.

    8. #28
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      Made some pretty good progress this week. Many courses in and many core filled. I have needed to work up a few courses then remove bracing so that I can work up even further. So I feel the need to core fill as I go. I am trying to leave the blocks about half to three quarter full so that when I add the next batch of core fill it bonds within a block.
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      So I am pretty happy with progress. My dry stack is not perfect. I have some seams that are up to 1/4 inch off from the next. So I think I will need to really lay the SBC thick when it comes to that.
      One more course on some and more on others. Minimum of 2 inches of insulation on everything down to two feet and 3/4 to 3 inches below that. Depending on how much I had room for between blocks and shoring.
      Last edited by mplskoi; 11-27-2017 at 11:35 PM.

    9. #29
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      Here is how the weekend ended:

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      Note my helper exiting the scene in top photo.
      And another angle:
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      So I have one more day of block work. Core filling the rest should be pretty easy. Tough part will be setting the skimmer and making two 4 inch thru wall water inlets that move water from RDF to filter and air lift chamber.
      Last edited by mplskoi; 11-27-2017 at 11:39 PM. Reason: spelling. ugh.

    10. #30
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      Setting elevations-
      For my BE RDF my measurements are 6 1/8 from top of RDF to water level, 18.5 from top of RDF to platform it sets on, and that the water inlets are 5.5 inches below water level.
      I will have my BE set so that the max water level will be right at the top of the pan that collects the debris during cleaning. And I think I will set my BE on a platform about 12 inches high. So I will measure down from the block where I know my max water level will be to set the floor for my filter chamber.
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      And in this pic my target goal for where I want my skimmer to be in relation to max water level.

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      Can I get a little feedback from those with BE units as to your thoughts on my elevations? Steve? Marilyn? others?
      My BE will be fed by 3 four inch lines and will have two 4 inch outlets. So drawdown on the supply side should be very minimal.
      Last edited by mplskoi; 11-27-2017 at 11:42 PM.

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    11. #31
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      Quote Originally Posted by mplskoi View Post
      Here is how the weekend ended
      Looks terrific!

      Don't worry about the gaps and how uneven it may look... once you spread a 1/8" or so of SBC over it, it'll look good.
      I dry stacked my filter pit with no core filling and it was shabby looking... after the SBC it looked spiffy.

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...58#post1267258
      --Steve



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    12. #32
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    13. #33
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      Sorry, I thought I'd do split up these posts...

      Quote Originally Posted by mplskoi View Post
      Setting elevations-
      For my BE RDF my measurements are 6 1/8 from top of RDF to water level, 18.5 from top of RDF to platform it sets on, and that the water inlets are 5.5 inches below water level.
      I will have my BE set so that the max water level will be right at the top of the pan that collects the debris during cleaning. And I think I will set my BE on a platform about 12 inches high. So I will measure down from the block where I know my max water level will be to set the floor for my filter chamber.


      Can I get a little feedback from those with BE units as to your thoughts on my elevations? Steve? Marilyn? others?
      My BE will be fed by 3 four inch lines and will have two 4 inch outlets. So drawdown on the supply side should be very minimal.
      I've set up exactly one of these so the only thing I have going for me is mine happens to work... take anything I say with a grain (or pound) of salt.

      But I think this is the hardest part of the whole thing. Guessing at how much draw down you'll end up with and how things will work when running.
      That's why I try and stress the ability to adjust the level if needed. Usually easier said than done.
      All these measurements are with the lid open and a 1x2 laying across the top of the RDF...
      so here are my 'stats'...

      Gravity inputs to the RDF: 2 - 4" skimmers and 2 - 3" mid water pickups at about 3' deep.

      Output pumps: 1 ESBB10500 to a shower and out to a waterfall and 4 tprs and one Performance Pro 1/3hp pump feeding 2 s/g filters. Exact flow rate of both = ?
      The ESBB10500 is usually about 3/4 open and the Perf Pro is open to each s/g filter as much as they'll handle without fluidizing... so guessing about 2000 gph each.

      In all honesty my waste outlet is propped up so it's always open because I've not fixed the failed waste valve issue.

      Max water level with pumps off and pond at normal level from the top rim of the RDF to water level in the RDF = ~2"

      When pumps are on and flowing normally, level inside the drum below the top rim = ~4 3/4"
      This level fluctuates very little if at all.
      Note the top of the waste tray is ~3 1/2" from the top rim and the holes in the waste tray are ~4 1/2", so the water level is about 1/4" from the holes in the waste
      tray. I may in the near future block those holes to make it waste a little less water.

      Fwiw, water level outside the drum when a cycle is initiated is about 9 1/4". But this doesn't really play a role in setting the RDF height imo.
      If yours is more or less it may be from adjusting or removing the ballast in the float. I currently have no ballast in the float. I just timed the cycle
      and it is at ~25 minutes and uses about 1 quart of water during the cycle since the water level is continually below the waste tray and waste tray holes.

      I'm happy to try and answer questions or help a long the way!
      --Steve



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    14. #34
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      Pictures if it helps...

      Where measurements were taken from:

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      Difference in water level between inside and outside drum when cleaning cycle happens:

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      --Steve



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    15. #35
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      Steve, so if you shut your pumps down for a bit then the water level would come up in the RDF to a point that it would spill over into the waste pan and run to drain?
      I was trying to set mine so that during "no flow" the water level of the pond is perfectly equal to the top of the waste tray. I will remeasure but it seems my waste tray is 6.125 from the top rim ( I set a level- like you set that board across the top and measured down). Seems yours is more like 3.5-4.5.
      I think I will be able to move my unit up and down an inch or two pretty easily but would sure like to get it right- or as close as possible right from the beginning.

    16. #36
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      Quote Originally Posted by mplskoi View Post
      Steve, so if you shut your pumps down for a bit then the water level would come up in the RDF to a point that it would spill over into the waste pan and run to drain?
      I was trying to set mine so that during "no flow" the water level of the pond is perfectly equal to the top of the waste tray. I will remeasure but it seems my waste tray is 6.125 from the top rim ( I set a level- like you set that board across the top and measured down). Seems yours is more like 3.5-4.5.
      I think I will be able to move my unit up and down an inch or two pretty easily but would sure like to get it right- or as close as possible right from the beginning.
      Yes. If I shut off the pumps (or if there's a power outage) it dumps a several hundred gallons until it drops the level of the pond to be below the waste tray and the weep
      holes in it, which is about 2 1/2" of pond level. Makes a bit of a mess but not the end of the world. As soon as the power restores the auto fill comes on and actually prevents
      the BE from doing a cleaning cycle since it drops the water pressure so low that it won't cycle but the one time I lost power unexpectedly, by the morning I ran out to check the pond
      and everything was working normally. Now the correct thing would be to fix that waste tray valve so that on a power outage you'd get little or no leakage through the waste
      port even if the water level went over it... but it's my fault I haven't fixed it yet.

      I double checked the measurement and I have it correct on mine. The front and back edge are actually about 1/4" lower though because the left and right edges of the waste tray
      are slightly higher than the front and back edges. Just fwiw...
      Maybe they redesigned it a bit over time?
      --Steve



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    17. #37
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      What about adding a 4" mid water on the BE with a ball valve that you could use to modify the flow coming into the drum... I would think that that would help raise the water level and raise the float... I don't have a BE but I wish I would have put in an extra two mid waters for adding flow and filtration later on...

    18. #38
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      Quote Originally Posted by Josh H View Post
      What about adding a 4" mid water on the BE with a ball valve that you could use to modify the flow coming into the drum... I would think that that would help raise the water level and raise the float... I don't have a BE but I wish I would have put in an extra two mid waters for adding flow and filtration later on...

      That and I'd put an additional one on another one of the inputs too... along with ball valves on the outputs of the pumps to give the best ability
      to fine tune the flow.
      --Steve



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    19. #39
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      Quote Originally Posted by Josh H View Post
      What about adding a 4" mid water on the BE with a ball valve that you could use to modify the flow coming into the drum... I would think that that would help raise the water level and raise the float... I don't have a BE but I wish I would have put in an extra two mid waters for adding flow and filtration later on...
      I am actually worried that I have too much capacity on the inlet side already. I am only looking to move around 5k GPH and I have 3 four inch lines coming to the BE RDF. If all three lines are perfectly balanced that is 1700 GPH per line and that is not enough to keep my BD's clean. So would like a 2000 (BD), 2000 (BD), 1000 (skimmer)split. Will likely have to push my flow up to 6-8000 GPH to keep my BD's lines from filling with sediment. All three lines will have ball valves to I expect that once a week I will shut down each BD line and force full flow through the other to flush it out.
      I also have to say that I am not a fan of midwater pick ups. Most debris floats or sinks. I would rather pull off the top or the bottom where I have a better chance of getting the debris. I have never really understood why people try to pull from the cleanest water in their tank. But that is just me!

      Steve- I went back and measured again. Your measurement was accurate- mine was not. It is about 3.5 inches from top of RDF to waste tray.

    20. #40
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      Progress as of the end of Sunday May 21:
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      All block is in and core filled. Of 9 courses high, 7 had horizontal rebar. All corners wrapped and full length of all walls.
      The filter pit is done to above grade. Ready for my BE RDF to get set in.
      In the next picture you can see 3 pipes coming up. Two are 4 inch lines from BD and the third is a 3 inch line that goes down to below the pond slab for any filter water that I want to be able to go to drain during the frozen months. I have pure sand sub soil so the bit of water that the RDF uses can soak in here. I will run larger amounts of water out of a sump to the yard during summer. My sump is that tan tank on the left. It will connect via the green hose to the 3 inch drain. Also you can see the slab I have set in place for the RDF to sit upon.
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      Here you can see the skimmer is set and will be plumbed as soon as I know exactly where the line needs to turn to go into pit.
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      And here another view inside the pond:
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      Today I was using hydraulic cement to finish off where my pipes went thru concrete. It started to drizzle when I was nearly done. Knowing that my hydraulic cement will likely go bad due to exposure to moisture I used most of the rest plugging some of the bigger gaps in my dry stack block. That is the darker areas that you see.
      Last edited by mplskoi; 11-27-2017 at 11:49 PM.

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