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    Thread: A great loss

    1. #21
      stevek is online now Supporting Member
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      I think it has already been clarified, but just to make sure, the term " gravel " as originally used by one of the respondents really means all type of rocks, which your pond has. I know when I was building my house and needed some fill, I thought gravel was more a gritty type of sand, but in many parts of the country, gravel can be smaller rocks. For koi/pond purposes, any kind of rock, pebbles, sand or dirt is typically discouraged for the reasons many have outlined. Impossible to clean adequately, a maintenance headache, and a place where all kinds of bad things can accumulate and cause health problems for the fish.

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    2. #22
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      Thanks Rick and apologies for the delayed response. I will definitely be reading the construction forum. It is too cold to take out the rocks now, but this will be done when it warms up. The more I ponder all the comments, I believe that I will be draining the pond, taking out the rocks and after educating myself via the construction forum, I will need to improve the filtration of the pond. The "professional Koi keeper" that made my pond said that the rock were crucial in the filtering process.

      Clearly I didn't know what I was getting into in having Koi. I built the pond for another reason entirely and having Koi was never an option. I was hit by a drunk driver (a 5 time repeater); prior to the accident I could cycle through the mountains over 50 miles a day and then start the rest of my day. After the accident (sustained a TBI-traumatic brain injury) I lost all 3 of my companies and began the very slow process of learning how to read, understand what I read, walking and talking. Unfortunately, permanent brain damage resulted in not being able to control my body temperature, heart rate or blood pressure (the autonomic system) to include poor eyesight. I could never be in the sun because it raised by blood pressure to stroke conditions so I purchased head lamps just so I could still have a garden. The doctors figured out the problem 3 years ago and I am on medication that allows me to be in the sun and I'm working to getting back where I was, albeit an excruciating slow process. The doctors did say that I could now do my outside activities, but when my body overheats to the dangerous level, I need to quickly cool down. A cold shower works but it takes forever so I decided to refurbish an old pond that was here when I purchased the house in 08. I explained to the contractor why I wanted the pond and when they brought in rocks, I explained that the rocks would not make it easy for me to get in/out so they only put rocks on the bottom where the filter is (not on the sides).

      After the pond was completed the contractor said I could have koi and still get in the pond so I thought, sure...we can try that. Unfortunately, I did not realize the knowledge needed to have koi and I still have none. I wanted to explain the history so that my questions were not met with "why the heck do you have koi if you know nothing".

      I still struggle with the cognitive impairment - that is understand what I am reading. The health of my fish is surprisingly something I think about to the point of compulsion. Despite the endless readings I do, I am still clueless. I know that I needed to test the water so I would take the water 20 miles away to have it tested. I tried to purchase the "right" testing kit, but your post asks that I "post the numeric results of the tests", but the kit I have has these color cards for the following: Wide range PH, Freshwater Phosphate, Nitrite and Ammonia. Will this suffice? Can you recommend a better testing kit? I tried to find a digital test that didn't cost an arm and a leg but could not find one. The problem with the color cards is that my view of colors is distorted so even though I have tested the water, I didn't feel confident that I was seeing the colors accurately.

      I also searched this morning as to what the rates should be for these tests; the included manual recommends the following but could you tell me if these are accurate.

      PH: 6.8-8.2 (7.0 neutral)
      Ammonia: zero
      Nitrite: Zero
      Phosphate: Zero

      These are what I believe are the test results:

      PH: 9.0 Ammonia: 1.0 Nitrite: 0.25 Phosphate: 1.0

      And I am now in high anxiety mode.

      When I had my water tested in the past, the only slightly high was the PH. Because my fish was ill, the fish store keeper had me purchase the Tetra bacteria/fungus treatment and control liquid. My pond is just over 3300 gallons so he told me to use 1 1/2 bottles. I noticed the pond was foamy but, given I was told how to and how much by a professional, I was confident that I was doing the right thing. Now, clearly...my pond water is horrible.

      I use well water and my first thought is to drain and add water. I do have household water softener salt and I also have food grade 35% H2O2.

      Please advise soonest and my gratitude in advance.

    3. #23
      DAH is offline Junior Member
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      Also, I tested the water at 8:00 am MDT
      The tetra pond fish medication is 16.9 oz. The bottle says 16.9 oz to 2500 gallons

    4. #24
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      Also, I tested the water at 8:00 am MDT
      The tetra pond fish medication is 16.9 oz. The bottle says 16.9 oz to 2500 gallons

    5. #25
      icu2's Avatar
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      Wow, I'm so sorry for all you've gone through. And being misled by with the pond builder just adds to the misery... but
      stay and read here and soon you'll know more than most of those "pro" builders and pet stores.

      I can't find what is in the Tetra meds but "HaloShield" which I find kind of comical. But until pros can respond I'd take
      those same test kits and test your water from the hose (well) so you know what the water tests like that you're replacing with.
      If you have less ammonia and nitrite in the well water, I'd replace about 20% of the pond but not all of it.

      You can get a product called Safe or Prime (very similar product) to make the ammonia and nitrite less toxic.

      There's also a test kit that uses drops that doesn't usually come in the kits and that is KH. I'd get that as it's important to
      know. Usually about $10. That will help with your pH. Phosphate is interesting but usually little you can do about it so
      I've never tested for it routinely and those levels aren't much to worry about at this point.

      Good luck going forward and others will be on soon to help!

      P.S. With well water be sure to let it spray or splash as it's added to the pond. Most well water has a lot of carbon dioxide and little
      oxygen in it and aeration will help add oxygen and dissipate the carbon dioxide.
      Last edited by icu2; 03-05-2017 at 12:59 PM.
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    6. #26
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      Quote Originally Posted by DAH View Post


      I also searched this morning as to what the rates should be for these tests; the included manual recommends the following but could you tell me if these are accurate.

      PH: 6.8-8.2 (7.0 neutral)
      Ammonia: zero
      Nitrite: Zero
      Phosphate: Zero

      These are what I believe are the test results:

      PH: 9.0 Ammonia: 1.0 Nitrite: 0.25 Phosphate: 1.0
      I would advise an Ammonia binder ASAP. A product like Prime will make that 1.0 Am level not be toxic. Shocking that your Am level is so high after you have done some water change. Have you tested your source water? If your well water is testing at zero for Am, then so long as you have aeration going on you should be able to change out about 10% per day pretty safely. 7 days in a row and you have done around 70% change.
      If you do not have a good aerator system, then set your garden hose on a fine mist that you can and spray the water so it passes through the air several feet and into the pond that way. Besides well water being low in O2 I believe it can harbor another slightly toxic gas (hmm? can't remember which) but once well water is aerated that gas dissipates.

      Sorry to hear about your bike wreck.

    7. #27
      icu2's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by mplskoi View Post
      I would advise an Ammonia binder ASAP. A product like Prime will make that 1.0 Am level not be toxic. Shocking that your Am level is so high after you have done some water change. Have you tested your source water? If your well water is testing at zero for Am, then so long as you have aeration going on you should be able to change out about 10% per day pretty safely. 7 days in a row and you have done around 70% change.
      If you do not have a good aerator system, then set your garden hose on a fine mist that you can and spray the water so it passes through the air several feet and into the pond that way. Besides well water being low in O2 I believe it can harbor another slightly toxic gas (hmm? can't remember which) but once well water is aerated that gas dissipates.

      Sorry to hear about your bike wreck.
      cross post but I think we were both on the same mindset.
      --Steve



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    8. #28
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      Well water test results
      PH: 7.5
      Ammonia: 0
      Nitrite: 0
      Phosphate: 0


      2nd pond water test at 2PM:
      PH: 9
      Ammonia: 0
      Nitrite: 0.25
      Phosphate: 0

      Somehow the ammonia is at zero? I tested twice.

    9. #29
      mplskoi is offline Supporting Member
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      Great! When I saw your Ammonia at 1.0 I could only imagine certain death for the rest. Ammonia shouldn't be high right now in an older pond especially if the fish are being fed very lightly.
      I have never dealt with Ph over 8.2. Will need to let someone else chime in on that. I use baking soda to buffer my Ph to keep it at 8.2. The most important thing is that it is stable through out the day. No swings.
      Obviously adding well water at 7.5 will be helpful. I wouldn't be afraid to do at least two or three 10% changes this week. And as Steve and I crossposted- spray the water in so it "breathes" on the way in.

      With your current parameters it is most likely the muck at the bottom of your pond that you need to worry about.

    10. #30
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      icu2 -I purchased 2 pints of the tetra pond fish medication and used 1 1/2 of the containers, so thankfully, I have the container to tell you what is listed as active ingredients which are formaldehyde and Quinine-hydrochloride.

      I had never thought about testing my well water from the outside spicket - great idea and I believe the levels were pretty good. I drained about 20% of the water and attached the 4 way hose valve so that water is spraying across the entire length and width as we speak.

      Thank you to all of you that are taking the time to respond - so very much appreciated!

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    11. #31
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      mplskoi: the 2 links you posted, specifically the https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...ake-1-and-redo - is that yours? That is incredible. Since I am already draining the pond to take out all the rocks, I am tempted beyond control to replicate this in some sort of fashion. I love that you can see the fish. I have tasked one of my son's to try and build me a submersible webcam so I can see my fish.

      In just having the pond built last spring, I haven't landscaped it because honestly, I don't know what I want yet. My son thinks that I should sod the entire area and put a tree close to the pond. Currently there is nothing but a path of flagstones and plain dirt. I read that a pond with lots of sun invites algae growth - and if last year was any indicator, I struggled with that the entire summer. In my reading, I understood that coloring the water would help keep the growth down so I purchased 5 gallons not understanding how little I would need. Unfortunately, balance is still pretty bad and I tripped while pouring in from the huge jug - my water was extremely blue and I could never see my fish. I have now 4 koi and 2 goldfish. The 4 koi are: 1 large white, 2 speckled with red top fins, a gold speckled and my favorite...an entirely teal blue female. I would love to be able to see my fish and the window seems like a much better idea than a webcam. I will be reading the guidelines in how you did that for some time. Thanks for posting/sharing your pics- I love them.

    12. #32
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      Quote Originally Posted by DAH View Post
      mplskoi: the 2 links you posted, specifically the https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...ake-1-and-redo - is that yours? That is incredible. Since I am already draining the pond to take out all the rocks, I am tempted beyond control to replicate this in some sort of fashion. I love that you can see the fish. I have tasked one of my son's to try and build me a submersible webcam so I can see my fish.

      In just having the pond built last spring, I haven't landscaped it because honestly, I don't know what I want yet. My son thinks that I should sod the entire area and put a tree close to the pond. Currently there is nothing but a path of flagstones and plain dirt. I read that a pond with lots of sun invites algae growth - and if last year was any indicator, I struggled with that the entire summer. In my reading, I understood that coloring the water would help keep the growth down so I purchased 5 gallons not understanding how little I would need. Unfortunately, balance is still pretty bad and I tripped while pouring in from the huge jug - my water was extremely blue and I could never see my fish. I have now 4 koi and 2 goldfish. The 4 koi are: 1 large white, 2 speckled with red top fins, a gold speckled and my favorite...an entirely teal blue female. I would love to be able to see my fish and the window seems like a much better idea than a webcam. I will be reading the guidelines in how you did that for some time. Thanks for posting/sharing your pics- I love them.
      Thanks DAH, yes that is my pond. I have spent all day getting ready to tear it out! While it is a nice pond, I love building and DIY work so will rebuild it this spring. Going up to 5000 gallons and some filtration changes.

      The window is really a treat for me. We sit at the patio and the fish gaze out at us! In my situation my yard rises as it goes away from me. If I had a deck patio area higher than I would not need a window. Find Steve- ICU2 pond- he sits on a patio looking down upon his fish and across and up at more water features. That view seems super nice.
      It all depends on what you are after. I think the pond you have now- coupled with a lot of new knowledge about maintaining healthy water- can suit you just fine. So if you just want to relax, your least amount of work will be making this pond work. But if you are bitten by THE BUG, well, it is time to get to the drawing board. You have access to that wonderful red flat stone near you. Every time I visit family in Boulder I want to bring a tandem axle trailer of that stuff home with me. Building a pond similar to mine but with that stone as coping could be amazing.
      Mother and Father in law have a great patio just below Chataqua in Boulder. All of that red stone. Beautiful place to put a pond. But their neighbor across the alley (who has a koi pond) struggles with the huge bears that come down into the neighborhood every night. They will make a mess of your pond right quick.

      Sad that it took a health emergency to bring you further into this hobby. But now that you are here I hope you have lots of fun with it.

    13. #33
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      the term " gravel " as originally used by one of the respondents really means all type of rocks

      Thanks for the clarification - I did not get that before and thought that gravel, was the tiny stuff.

    14. #34
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      I'm speechless with you tearing it out, but given I'm a beginner, that is the coolest set-up I have seen; reading further into that thread, the stamped concrete of the koi is beautiful. Did you end up doing that? I will check out ICU2's pond - thanks.

      I've spent the last couple of hours taking out the rock by the filter. I'm not sure how the pond was built (I was working my job while they were putting in the pond); so far, I have taken out 4 wheelbarrows of rock just by the filter and it seems like there is not bottom (so far up to my elbows and still digging out the rock). There are also 2 electrical wires that I am assuming to just be careful and mindful of but no damage or injury should happen as long as I careful - right?

      As I kept digging, I kept seeing that window in my head and so yes, in response as to whether or not I've been bitten...my bank account and lack of creativity will be stretched, but I have indeed gotten the bug. It will be a lot of fun - there is not enough time in the day to absorb what I need to know or how I should redesign this pond, but, I will be checking out ponds of others in this forum and I should be able to come up with something.

      In building the pond, the contractor used an adhesive foam that expanded to secure the bigger rocks to the sides of the pond in the filter area. I was able to pull most of this hardened foam off but I was hesitant in pulling too hard thereby creating a leak. Is that something I should be worried about?

      When I eventually come to the point of having to take the fish out, what would be recommended to keep them in? Would a horse water tank be acceptable (assuming it is clean and leak free)?

    15. #35
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      The pH color scales are hard to read. I like the digital pH pens, https://amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?...+pH+test+meter, which are not that expensive, and easily read. Whichever one you pick, be sure to get some of the calibration solution or powder to check calibration periodically, as they do drift some, but even drifted they are closer than the eyeball on the color chart. As was mentioned, you also need to get the KH test kit, as it is more important than the pH test in my mind. Depending on the well, the water may be near devoid of any buffer(usually very soft water), allowing the pH to drift all over the scale, or it can be high hard water with a high carbonate, which will be well buffered with a good KH. If the KH is lower than about 100ppm, then the addition of baking soda will be the cheapest and easiest way to get the pH buffering. The use of baking soda will peg the pH at about 8.3 or 8.4 but that is not a problem, rapidly changing pH is a problem. Hard water typically comes from sources of limestone type deposits and to dissolve the limestone, the water has to become acid, and oxygen depleted, so the information given above is absolutely necessary about spraying the water in. The acid is carbon dioxide dissolved in the water from the carbonate rock dissolving, and it is vented out quickly by the spray. Some wells have dissolved hydrogen sulfide, making the water smell of rotten eggs, and that gas is highly toxic to the fish, but if this is your drinking water, I would not anticipate that being in the water.

      All surfaces are places for the good bio bacteria to populate, given good oxygen and food source, which requires flow, so some of the rock is acting as part of your filtration. You need to look into some form of filter that is outside the pond, to take the bio load. The sand gravel filter of birdman, is a good cheap filter that should take care of most of your bio load, but filtration provided by most of those garden pond installers is usually pretty minimal.

      As for pulling the foam off, I don't think you can pull a tear in the liner. That stuff is tough. Temporary quarters for the fish when you take them is easily provided using the https://www.walmart.com/ip/Intex-10-...-Pool/40720864.
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    16. #36
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      Well you have been bitten haven't you! If you think you are going to do a tear out then getting a rip is not a big issue. But EPDM is pretty tough. So pulling rocks and foam off of it should not harm it.
      Others may provide links- but for temp koi housing I think it is Intek that makes a kiddy pool that does a pretty good job. Seems like you can find one about 7-9 feet across and deep enough to do the job. But yes, stock tanks have been used many times quite successfully. More important to put a lid on these than you might realize.

      I have not yet done the koi stamp. I really like it and it looks awesome on viper toms pond. I hope that I will find the right place to use it and VT has offered to loan the stamp.

    17. #37
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      Good morning all.

      @Rich - thanks much for the link for the digital tester, temporary quarters and the filtration. Not enough time or brain power to take all this in as fast as I would like. I'm feeling more inept as the days pass but, it's a process. As long as I don't lose any more fish, I'm loving it.


      Water test data @ 6:30 am - how do I get the PH down? I figured I would ask now and do the research next.

      PH: 9.0
      Ammonia: 0.5
      Nitrite: 0.25
      Phosphate: 0.5
      Last edited by DAH; 03-06-2017 at 08:54 AM.

    18. #38
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      Will adding 1/4 cup vinegar every 500 gallons be an option? I have regular household vinegar.

    19. #39
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      Hi Rich- I've ordered the PH pens; I have tried reading for close to an hour about which KH test to purchase. Is this the API GH and KH Test Kit a good one? After reading the reviews and the questions I am most confused about this test.

      I understand that it has to do with the carbonate hardness. Am I understanding correctly that the KH is a direct correlation to the PH level.

      This test appears to use the same method that I do now: pond water in test tube, add the # of drops as instructed and compare the colors.

      But then, it also says to add a drop and look at the color. Repeat until it changes, counting drops.

      Then it refers to KH and GH which is then referred to the conversion chart.

    20. #40
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      The API GH/KH is a good one.

      The test itself is actually really simple. You get a pond water sample like you did with pH but you just put in a single drop
      and the water should turn blue. Then add one drop at a time and shake and check the color. It may get even bluer with subsequent
      drops but keep counting them (including the first drop) one at a time and when the water changes blue to yellow, that is your KH.
      Multiply the number of drops by 17.8 to get your KH "number" (dh).
      Last edited by icu2; 03-06-2017 at 01:36 PM.
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