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Thread: DIY RDF "2.0", The Beast

  1. #21
    kimini is offline
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    The rest of the 96 ribs were cut and finished, at right. The rejects are under the table, kept around in case they're needed for something else.

    Next was cutting the drum frames, starting with the basic discs:
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    I call this picture "Using tools to make tools to make parts to make a filter". Making a router fixture to cut the rib notches in the frames.
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    Then the centers were cut out:
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    Leaving rings:
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    This gives a rough idea of how it assembles. I was just screwing around here and not worrying about alignment. The nice thing is that the ribs are a really tight fit in the slots such that the entire affair is self-jigging. When the first 8 ribs were installed, the assembly was really "floppy". Adding the next 8 helped a lot, and with all 96 it may be stiff enough to not need diagonal bracing, but we'll see. I already have a solution in mind in case that's needed, really simple and inexpensive.
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    Here the bits are being placed to construct the assembly. All ribs will be installed before being plastic welded:
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    Last edited by kimini; 1 Week Ago at 02:14 AM.
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  2. #22
    Marlo is online now
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    Awesome project! Thanks for sharing.

    There was a time not so long ago when I would have been tempted to take on a design/build like this. But frankly, every time you post an update I feel better and better about my decision to pop for the ProfiDrum!
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  3. #23
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    I enjoy the journey. Some people pass the time watching TV or cat videos - I build stuff. If the end result is something useful and cheaper than could have been bought, that's icing on the cake. I save money, have fun building things, and learn new skills. I could have bought one, then been at the mercy of the manufacturer for support, if they're even around when needed.
    Last edited by kimini; 1 Week Ago at 01:43 PM.
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  4. #24
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    And presto, one basic - and giant - drum. Some of the ribs aren't exactly straight but big deal. 1/2" end rings still need to be added plus making the screen clamp, but it's basically there. Now the design of the enclosure can proceed.

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    Last edited by kimini; 1 Week Ago at 12:50 PM.
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  5. #25
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    Hat off
    Cant wait to see it running

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by kimini View Post
    And presto, one basic - and giant - drum. Some of the ribs aren't exactly straight but big deal. 1/2" end rings still need to be added plus making the screen clamp, but it's basically there. Now the design of the enclosure can proceed.

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    do you think you may have twisting of the drum due to rotational torque. from you picture it looks like the ribs are very thin and flexible. if i understand correctly you are going to weld them in place but will that be enough to stop twisting.


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  7. #27
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    Some twisting torque is expected since the ribs effectively form "paddles" in the water when submerged. Since the drum will be wrapped with a large sheet of expanded stainless however, it will act as a rigid collar to resist any twisting. If for some reason there's still an issue, stainless safety wire (from the car project world) will be used as stabilizing guy wires inside the drum.
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  8. #28
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    Next is fabricating the drum ends and since they support the full weight of the drum, they'll be 1/2" thick. As wasteful as the fabrication will be, the rings will be single-piece; it's too risky making them from segments (without the precision of CNC) and expect them to end up accurately round. The cut-out centers will be used for interior gusseting. Since SeaBoard is available in different colors we whimsically decided on something more closely matching what passes for soil here.

    Though I haven't done the math, the finished assembly will weigh around 150-200 lbs. The plan is to move the basic unit into place then install the drum and lid separately.

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    Last edited by kimini; 1 Week Ago at 04:45 PM.
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  9. #29
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    I am really impressed by the attention to detail and fabrication skills involved in this project. Thank you for sharing the process with the forum.

    I am also in SoCal -- San Diego County to be precise. Let me know if you need to recruit extra muscle when it comes time to move this thing....

  10. #30
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    Thanks! We're in the north county of San Diego. We were in the San Diego Koi Club a long time back, dropped out, and are now back in it, attending when we can. I'll have to address one of the meetings, asking if there's a Paultergeist present.
    Last edited by kimini; 1 Week Ago at 07:56 PM.
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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by kimini View Post
    Next is fabricating the drum ends and since they support the full weight of the drum, they'll be 1/2" thick. As wasteful as the fabrication will be, the rings will be single-piece; it's too risky making them from segments (without the precision of CNC) and expect them to end up accurately round. The cut-out centers will be used for interior gusseting. Since SeaBoard is available in different colors we whimsically decided on something more closely matching what passes for soil here.

    Though I haven't done the math, the finished assembly will weigh around 150-200 lbs. The plan is to move the basic unit into place then install the drum and lid separately.


    Oh Noooooooo.... You bought the Seelye Welder That is the first "professional" welder I bought as well. It works okay but you have to be VERY careful with the heating element and make sure the welder is not dropped and is allowed a nice cool down before turning off the air. Also be very careful with the stainless heat shield (I like to call it the OUCH YOU MOTHER .....ER SHIELD) because you will burn yourself many times and it really hurts. The heating element inside the welder is very fragile as well and the resistance wire will break on you without warning. This will cause little shorts inside the heating element and the hot air will vary in temp as the wires get shorted and then open back up. If you notice your welds are burning one second and not producing enough squeezout the next moment you can blame it on the heating element. Leister Pen S is my favorite welder so far and the way they route the air over the heat shield you do not have to worry about burning yourself, unless you remain in contact with it for long periods of time. If there is ANY chance that you can return the Seelye and buy a Leister I would highly recommend you do that. You may spend a little more money this way but you will not regret it.

    Good work on the RDF design though. It really is amazing what a craftsman can do with standard woodworking tools.
    Zac Penn
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  12. #32
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    Are you going to build a custom controller or do you have an "off the shelf" option?

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zac Penn View Post
    Oh Noooooooo.... You bought the Seelye Welder .
    Story of my life... research something to death, make a choice, make a purchase, and only then do people come out of the woodwork, "What you should have done was..."

    It was bought used yet practically new for way less than the new price, so it's here and will be used. Doing a lot of metal work, I know all about avoiding burns. It has an automatic low-airflow cutoff to protect the heating element but I never count on it. I just ordered a spare heating element, so there's that.
    Last edited by kimini; 1 Week Ago at 02:06 PM.
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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbullard View Post
    Are you going to build a custom controller or do you have an "off the shelf" option?
    I already built one for RDF v1.0 so it'll get transferred over to this one when the time comes. There are a couple pictures of it in the other RDF thread: http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...Diy-rdf/page16 in Post #318. It uses a really cool 12V 10-amp timer module that was only about $20. I'll redraw the schematic more neatly and post it in this thread when I get around to it.
    Last edited by kimini; 1 Week Ago at 02:13 PM.
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  15. #35
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    That is a huge drum! Did you do any rough calculations to determine the size of the drum and how much flow it can handle? Great workmanship by the way.

  16. #36
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    The entire design is based around a standard 4'x8' sheet of expanded metal which is used as a drum-surround, so it was known from the start that the drum diameter would be 96" / pi, or 30.56". As far as predicting the flow, there are too many squishy variables so it would just be guesses. The unit I'm running now uses a plastic 55-gallon drum with a bunch of 3" holes in it and 65-micron polyester filter cloth, cycling about every 30 minutes but I don't know the flow rate. With the far greater surface area of the new setup, I may try 40-micron filter cloth and see how it goes. The flow will be whatever it is; I'm assuming from its sheer size that we won't ever have to worry about overloading it.
    Last edited by kimini; 1 Week Ago at 04:39 PM.
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  17. #37
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    Added the drum ends:
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    Next, choosing the best seal for the drum. Ended up going with the one at right but keeping the others around just in case:
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    And attached. Bolts double as insurance that the seal adhesive doesn't break free and also attaches the end ring to the drum. The reason to add the seal at this early stage is to get an honest idea of the overall length of the drum assembly. The outer filter housing has to compress the seal but only just so:
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    Trial screen fit-up; it still needs a bit of trimming and a hinge added half way around to make filter element replacement easier with the drum in-place. The trick is figuring out how much clearance is needed to replace it without having to pull the drum out:Name:  IMG_20170218_165701.jpg
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    Last edited by kimini; 6 Days Ago at 12:22 PM.
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  18. #38
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    Kimini,
    Your filter is coming along nicely. I do want to interject a little bit from experience, and you can do with it what you will...
    Using silicone, foam rubber, epdm, etc... as the seal of the RDF creates some complications. The rubber will require lubrication to get it rotating smoothly against the plastic. This lubrication will eventually wash away/dry up as the seal rotates and squeegees the lubricant away from the rubber. Then you have rubber on plastic, and even at low RPM's the friction buildup is more than you would expect. The seal will start to leave some rubber on the plastic similar to a burnout strip at the racetrack. Then you have rubber on rubber and the friction gets even greater. This extra friction will try to rip the rubber off of the drum at the adhesive (which doesn't adhere well to HDPE) and then tear it at the mechanical fasteners.
    You may want to look into LDPE as a seal material because it has a far less coefficient of friction and it is very pliable. I am pretty sure that is what is used on the Profidrum as a seal.

    I do not envy you when it comes time to weld all those support rids on the drum. That is going to take forever!!!!!! Make sure you have some good tunes playing while you tackle that portion of the project.
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  19. #39
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    I had that seal on my snug top cover for my s10. it didn't hold up to well and left black marks on my paint.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zac Penn View Post
    Kimini,
    Your filter is coming along nicely. I do want to interject a little bit from experience, and you can do with it what you will...
    Using silicone, foam rubber, epdm, etc... as the seal of the RDF creates some complications. The rubber will require lubrication to get it rotating smoothly against the plastic. This lubrication will eventually wash away/dry up as the seal rotates and squeegees the lubricant away from the rubber. Then you have rubber on plastic, and even at low RPM's the friction buildup is more than you would expect. The seal will start to leave some rubber on the plastic similar to a burnout strip at the racetrack. Then you have rubber on rubber and the friction gets even greater. This extra friction will try to rip the rubber off of the drum at the adhesive (which doesn't adhere well to HDPE) and then tear it at the mechanical fasteners.
    You may want to look into LDPE as a seal material because it has a far less coefficient of friction and it is very pliable. I am pretty sure that is what is used on the Profidrum as a seal.

    I do not envy you when it comes time to weld all those support rids on the drum. That is going to take forever!!!!!! Make sure you have some good tunes playing while you tackle that portion of the project.
    Yeah I wondered how EDPM would hold up to sliding friction. I thought (hoped?) that the combination of water as a lubricant and the seal being lightly-loaded would let it live. I'll investigate using foamed LDPE as a gasket.

    About welding the support ribs, they're a press-fit into the rib supports - I had to use a mallet to seat them then tacked them in position. Additionally, the screen also keeps them in place so they're captive with no need for welding.

    I figure the design went wrong long ago, as Zoki51 has been very quiet, no doubt being polite instead of listing out all my design flaws!
    Last edited by kimini; 5 Days Ago at 01:42 PM.
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