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  • Results 1 to 17 of 17

    Thread: Cermedia...How it is shipped and how it is used inside my filters

    1. #1
      Zac Penn's Avatar
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      Post Cermedia...How it is shipped and how it is used inside my filters

      ......I originally posted this on Jan 28th 2017, and I just updated it on March 17th 2017.....



      To preface this thread I want to state that I do not work for Cermedia, nor do I get kickbacks for using their media, and also I do not stock Cermedia at my warehouse. If someone orders a Zakki Shower then I have the required amount of media drop shipped directly from the factory. I do not handle the media directly.

      There is some confusion as to how much media you will receive when you order Cermedia from me. In most instances, when I provide Cermedia to a customer it is going to be used in a Zakki Shower. It is VERY rare that someone orders only Cermedia and not a filter for it to go in.

      With that being said, I know how much media is needed to work properly inside my filters so that is what you will end up receiving.

      When the media is shipped from the factory it will NOT be stacked nice and tight like this...


      The above picture shows a total of 32 MP2C cubes stacked on top of each other..... Simple math tells us that the volume of the above block of Cermedia is ----- 32 pieces TIMES 2" x 2" x 2" (8 cubic inches) = 256 cubic inches HOWEVER That is NOT how Cermedia is measured and sold!!!!!!!

      The above picture it is NOT how you are supposed to use the media inside a filter. There is no air space between the pieces for air exchange, nor are there pathways for water to travel around the pieces.

      If you tried to install Cermedia into one of my media baskets like this...


      All of the water would have to pass through the top layer of media and that would cause a restriction to flow. The above picture shows all 32 pieces of MP2C installed inside an 8" x 8" x 4" deep media basket. This media basket has an internal volume of 256 cubic inches.

      Cermedia IS supposed to be installed as a loose pack inside the filter so it will look like this if installed correctly...


      The above picture shows the same 8" x 8" x 4" deep media basket, and the same 32 pieces of MP2C. Notice how there are 11 pieces left over that will not fit inside the media basket? That is due to the required air space between the pieces of media for air exchange and water passage.

      There are 21 pieces of MP2C that are CORRECTLY packed inside the 256 cubic inch media basket, so that is an accurate representation of what 256 cubic inches of Cermedia looks like when it is used correctly.

      When Cermedia ships MP2C to a customer, it is poured into a box in a similar fashion as to how it is supposed to be used, and WILL look similar to this...



      The above picture shows the same 32 pieces of MP2C poured into a box with the inside measurements of 9" x 8" x 8" tall (576 cubic inches). The 32 pieces of MP2C only occupy the space inside the box of 9" x 8" x 6 1/2" tall (468 cubic inches), so those 32 pieces represent an actual media volume of 468 cubic inches NOT the 256 cubic inches we calculated earlier.

      Now lets expand on this small example and use 1 cubic foot measurements for more real world expectations...
      1 cubic foot of space equals 1728 cubic inches
      If you stacked the MP2C INCORRECTLY in a nice tight stack that would yield you 216 individual pieces of media (DO NOT EXPECT TO RECEIVE 216 PIECES OF MEDIA WHEN YOU ORDER 1 CU FT)
      Cermedia is shipped according to how it is supposed to be used...
      So if our example media basket with a volume of 256 cubic inches of space only holds 21 pieces of MP2C you get a ratio of...
      256 cubic inches of space DIVIDED BY 21 pieces of MP2C EQUALS 12.19 cubic inches of space = 1 cube of MP2C
      or using the larger cardboard box example you get a ratio of...
      468 cubic inches of space DIVIDED BY 32 pieces of MP2C EQUALS 14.625 cubic inches of space = 1 cube of MP2C
      So lets average those two ratios... 12.19 + 14.625 = 26.815 DIVIDED BY 2 = 13.407 cubic inches of space per 1 cube of MP2C

      When you order 1 cubic foot of Cermedia you can expect to receive somewhere around 128 cubes of MP2C.
      DO NOT EXPECT 216 CUBES OF MP2C BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT RECEIVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      If you ordered 1 cubic foot and received more than 128 cubes of MP2C, then congratulations you have more media than you need for your filter. If you end up with less than 128 cubes and you feel cheated then please contact me and I will make sure you receive more at no extra charge.

      If you order a Full Sized Zakki Shower that has two media baskets inside it (each basket holds 1 1/2 cu ft of Cermedia) then I will have 3 cu ft of MP2C drop shipped directly to you. You can expect to receive somewhere around 384 cubes of MP2C. If you want to count all those pieces and you ended up with less than that amount, then please feel free to contact me and ask for more media. I will make sure it is delivered to you at no extra charge. If you receive more than 384 cubes of MP2C, then yippie for you!!!!!

      Hopefully this post sheds some light on what to expect when you purchase Cermedia. I will try to update this posting with other pictures and examples but like i said at the beginning of this post, I DO NOT STOCK Cermedia at my warehouse so it is not like I can do another example of this with 5 cu ft because I do not have 5 cu ft of MP2C laying around. To be honest I do not even have 1 cu ft of MP2C laying around at my warehouse. If you have any questions feel free to ask them here, but keep in mind that this thread is located in my own Marketplace Forum so I have moderator controls and I can delete anything I feel does not contribute to a healthy discussion about the topic at hand.

      _______NEW UPDATE 3-17-2017______



      I wanted to update this thread and provide a little more clarity to the whole "how Cermedia is shipped, used and how much you receive" subject. I just received a 2 Cubic Foot order directly from the factory and I thought I would do an open box demonstration for everyone to see what is included and what to expect when they order Cermedia's MP2C product. Now here is a BIG point that I want to make because mistakes have happened in the past when it came to shipping MP2C. Cermedia told me that a few of their employees, even after they had been trained to do otherwise, packaged a few orders IN THE WRONG FASHION!!!!! These employees tightly stacked the cubes inside the shipping boxes, which ended up yielding more media for those customers than everyone else. I think this is the whole reason there was such confusion about how much media is shipped and why some people felt they were getting cheated while those lucky people got way more media than they were supposed to get.

      So now lets get to the fun stuff....
      Outside of the box...





      Freshly opened box (18 x 18 x 12 = 2.25 Cubic Feet Inside Dimensions)...


      MP2C Cubes being tightly stacked into 10 cubes x 10 cubes x 3 layers thick (300 cubes)...





      The leftover cubes forming a 4 cube x 5 cube x 2 layers thick (42 cubes) We will get to all the dust later...



      300 cubes = 21.75" x 21" x 6" thick = 2740.5 cu/in





      40 cubes = 11" x 8" x 3.75" thick = 330 cu/in (I left out the extra 2 cubes for simplicity)





      2740.5 cu/in + 330 cu/in = 3,070.5 cu/in or 1.77 cu/ft






      SOOOOOOOOOO If you wanted to take the time and stack your media INCORRECTLY inside a given space you would end up with roughly 1.77 cu/ft of media. Remember though you ARE NOT supposed to use this media tightly stacked. It does not create the kind of water flow patterns you want nor does it allow for larger air gaps around the blocks for gas exchange.


      Now lets get to all of that ceramic dust that was in the empty box...



      This is all of the dust placed inside this small box...



      All of the dust and the box weighs 3 lbs 5.8 ounces




      The empty box weighs 2.2 ounces




      40 cubes of the MP2C (330 cu/in of neatly stacked volume) Notice the extra 2 cubes in the back?
      All of those cubes weigh 3 lbs 0.2 ounces






      So when we play with the numbers and convert raw ceramic dust into actual pieces of Cermedia MP2C you can see that each piece of MP2C averages out to be 1.205 ounces per cube. 53.8 ounces of dust divided by 1.205 ounces per cube = 44.6 cubes of MP2C that turned to dust during the shipping and unpacking process. If 40 cubes of MP2C = 330 cu/in of volume then we know how much media was originally packed inside that 18" x 18" x 12" shipping box... 2740.5 + 330 + 330 = 3,400 cu/in or 1.97 cu/ft. So even if the employees at the factory neatly stacked THE EXACT SAME QUANTITY OF MEDIA the box ORIGINALLY held 1.97 cu/ft of media. During the shipping and unpacking 0.19 cu/ft of the media turned to dust. Unfortunately this is a difficult problem to solve and not something I am going to get into during this post.





      Now lets get to how you are actually supposed to use your MP2C inside of a filter. You want to grab you filter (in this case it is a 12" x 24" x 12" inside dimensions box)






      You then want to start grading your Cermedia out of the shipping box and just throw it, without regard to how it is stacked, into your filter. After the filter has been halfway filled you can give it a little shake to help settle things in tighter (don't shake it too much or else you will create more dust) and then continue to fill the filter. The following picture is every single piece of media that was delivered, which actually filled the 2 cu ft box EXACTLY like it should!!!!!!




      Then you can dispose of the ceramic dust any way you see fit.





      Long story short is this...
      I ordered 2 cu ft of MP2C.
      I received 342 cubes of media and 53.8 ounces of dust
      Earlier in this thread I told everyone to expect at least around 128 cubes per cu ft to be delivered.
      I ended up with 171 cubes per cu ft and my box was loosely filled, NOT TIGHTLY STACKED, with media.

      The shipping box has an internal volume of 2.25 cu ft of space
      If you tightly stacked (once again THE WRONG WAY TO USE THIS MEDIA) all 171 cubes inside a filter, you would end up with 1.78 cu ft of filled space
      If you loosely pack ( THE CORRECT WAY OF USING THIS MEDIA) all 171 cubes inside a filter, you will end up with exactly 2 cu ft of filled space


      Hopefully this will clear up any misconceptions and help people to understand what they are purchasing when you buy the Cermedia MP2C product.
      Last edited by Zac Penn; 03-17-2017 at 04:15 PM.
      Zac Penn.... Not an expert on Pump Testing, no matter what people may think!
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    2. #2
      bbmc88's Avatar
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      I dont know where I saw it mentioned , But there were posts regarding it didn't matter, I believe ViperTom stacked it neatly like your showing not too, even myself have stacked it that way. I dont remember there ever being a do or dont with regards to it till now, but Ive been out of the loop a while
      I guess that i figured the air exchange would take place with the spacing between blocks as well as holes in basket and pourous media. Time to alter my shower in QT

    3. #3
      Zac Penn's Avatar
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      Thanks for chiming in Billy.

      I do not speak for Cermedia as a company when I provide those correct/incorrect examples above. That is how Deepwater Koi Innovations recommends that the media be used, and how it has been tested for biological filtration. By using the loose pack installation, I was able to come up with bio-conversion capacities for my Zakki Showers. When the MP2C is installed correctly then I can estimate how much food the filter can process based on the flow rate through the filter when compared to the size of the pond, and stocking density.

      If the Cermedia is installed in a way other than what I describe as correct then I have no idea how effective the filter will be. I just know what works best for my design and I am recommending that to my customers.

      If someone has testing data that compares different ways of installing Cermedia (stacking vs loose fill) and wants to share it then I encourage it. I HAVE NOT done such testing, nor do I plan on having a test like that, so hopefully people aren't holding their breath hahaha
      Zac Penn.... Not an expert on Pump Testing, no matter what people may think!
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    4. #4
      Marilyn's Avatar
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      Zac, I'm well past any hard feelings about the amount of media that I obtained especially when I began to see its less than ideal performance. I don't know of any hobbyist that purchases a ceramic media that wants to deal with having to calculate how much media was lost when it falls apart let alone cleaning the tank, tray and pond it was in to remove the sand-like remains when it does break down.

      Regarding a fair representation of the volume you are getting, have you and cermedia considered measuring it the way that Bakki media is sold? It is sold by weight and there are recommendations for the weight per thousand gallons. This seems a very easy and doable practice that would be easier for consumers to understand and appreciate rather than voids and air space etc.
      The consumer is getting exactly what they know they are getting and dealers provide a formula for its implementation. It takes all of the potential angst out of it because the bottom line, IMO, is that people don't want to pay for air space.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

      I'll say something when I feel I have something worth saying. I'm not a fan of flapping my lips just because they are there.

    5. #5
      mplskoi is online now Supporting Member
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      Thanks Zac. I just moved my shower inside yesterday as I am preparing for a pond rebuild as soon as it is warm enough to work w concrete. I love that these fired ceramic medias are so light. I was able to move by myself a shower full of media that is capable of handling the bio for 5 large fish. My cermedia is at least 3 years old and holding up well.
      I like that the different competitors making theses products are making them in different shapes. Different shapes for different applications.

    6. #6
      Zac Penn's Avatar
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      Unfortunately I do not work for Cermedia so i have no say in how it is marketed and sold. If Cermedia was originally sold in weight increments at the very beginning then this certainly wouldn't be an issue. I cannot change that so I have to work around what I am given. I am very sorry for ALL of the issues you have had regarding Cermedia, but I ONLY want to address the current issue with this thread, which is relating to the amount of media received. I do not want to talk about how some customers received bad batches of media, because that is a completely different subject all together. Please lets stick to volume of media in this thread.

      I have been selling the Zakki Shower exclusively with Cermedia for 6 years and NOT ONE SINGLE CUSTOMER has ever e-mailed me, called me, or spoken to me at a koi show about being deceived at the amount of media they received either directly from me or from a drop shipment from the factory. I had no idea anyone was upset about this until the recent message board threads blew up about soft media. I don't understand why it took so long for me and the general public to hear that some customers felt cheated or deceived.

      You were upset about how much media you received from your purchase and you thought you were being cheated. Why didn't you contact me right away and ask what was going on? I like to think of myself as a nice guy and I am understanding of other peoples points of views. If you felt your were being cheated I would have been willing to help make you feel satisfied with your purchase or at least provide some clarity as to what was going on. I can't address a problem, provide clarification or resolution unless I know there is a problem to begin with. I am very glad that you do not hold any ill feelings towards me from your previous experience, but I really wish I would have known about your feelings years ago.

      I want this thread to help educate the public on what to expect with their purchase.
      Zac Penn.... Not an expert on Pump Testing, no matter what people may think!
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    7. #7
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      I can only speak for myself though, I admit, the subject of cermedia has come up numerous times with me and others.

      At the point I discovered the shortage, I was already removing the product from my systems. I had no desire for replacements for what was disintegrating nor did I care to address that what I paid for, in cubic feet, was not what I feel I received. I had no use for more of the same so I chalked it up to lesson learned.
      My suggestion was for those going forward and I offered something that works very well with a different product. I'm sorry if you think it was not a valid suggestion. It was done purely to offset potential situations.

      Btw, the first shipment of cermedia I got did arrive stacked like you say it should not be shipped. This proceeded my purchase from you by a few months.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

      I'll say something when I feel I have something worth saying. I'm not a fan of flapping my lips just because they are there.

    8. #8
      Zac Penn's Avatar
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      Below is a comment I received through private messaging this weekend. I am going to share it here to provide more clarification on this issue and on my usage of Cermedia in general.


      Quote Originally Posted by .....
      First let me say I've been happy with my dealings with you. Although I've never bought one of your filters I have a dumb suggestion/question?

      Why not list the your shower filters per volume of waste processed or food fed?

      I'm probably not stating this correctly but what I'm trying to say is instead of X cubic feet of material the trays will hold would it not be better to list the capacity the same way the media used in them is marketed?

      Maybe that too would be confusing for us hobbyists that don't have the depth of knowledge some others do?

      I don't believe for a moment you attempted to deceive anyone, just a thought on my end, guess I have too much time on my hands.....

      Thanks for reading hopefully it wasn't a waste of your time.

      Hey ......,
      Your suggestion is a very good one, and when I am talking with customers about their order I do supply them with that information. The difficulty with a blanket "food processing capacity" statement is that the quantity of food that the shower can handle is directly related to the volume of water in the specific pond, as well as the flow rate going through the Zakki Shower. During my filter development I was able to come up with processing capacity numbers based on total pond size and turnover rate through the shower. For example...
      1 cu ft of Cermedia inside a Zakki Shower can process 1 lbs of food per day with a turnover rate of once per 30 minutes
      1 cu ft of Cermedia inside a Zakki Shower can process .75 lbs of food per day with a turnover rate of once per 45 minutes
      1 cu ft of Cermedia inside a Zakki Shower can process .5 lbs of food per day with a turnover rate of once per 60 minutes

      The above examples are only for biological filtering capacities. If you have a small pond and are feeding 1 lbs of food per day and you only have a 1 cu ft Zakki Shower, then you better have some really good mechanical filtration as well as a constant trickle of new water that gains you at least a 10 percent water change per day. If you don't then the coloring of the pond water is going to be effected by the high amount of food being processed due to DOC's being dissolved into the water. Even with those extra measures the water still may be cloudy or oily looking depending on what kind of food that is being fed.

      Everything is a balancing act when it comes to filtration so a one size fits all never really works. Case and point... My socks never fit me just right!
      Zac Penn.... Not an expert on Pump Testing, no matter what people may think!
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    9. #9
      Zac Penn's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Marilyn View Post
      I can only speak for myself though, I admit, the subject of cermedia has come up numerous times with me and others.

      At the point I discovered the shortage, I was already removing the product from my systems. I had no desire for replacements for what was disintegrating nor did I care to address that what I paid for, in cubic feet, was not what I feel I received. I had no use for more of the same so I chalked it up to lesson learned.
      My suggestion was for those going forward and I offered something that works very well with a different product. I'm sorry if you think it was not a valid suggestion. It was done purely to offset potential situations.

      Btw, the first shipment of cermedia I got did arrive stacked like you say it should not be shipped. This proceeded my purchase from you by a few months.

      I just want to make sure I understand everything you have said correctly so I can better address this issue in the future...
      You discovered the shortage of media at the same time that you realized most of your media was breaking down and washing away from your shower? It doesn't seem fair to think that I shorted/cheated you out of media (at the time of purchase), when said media was missing from your filter due to breaking down. I feel the appropriate time to report such a shortage would be right after you received the shipment and opened the boxes. Not years after the purchase when the original quantity of media could not be verified due to erosion of the media, mixing of media from multiple sources, and shipping boxes being thrown away. I wish you would have come to me directly, even years after the purchase, and expressed your feelings about this issue so I would have at least known about it. Unfortunately that was not the case, and I was blindsided when I read on a message board that you and others think I was cheating people out of media. That is certainly not the case. It is just a misunderstanding as to the amount of media that is supposed to be delivered. Hopefully this thread helps to eliminate that confusion.
      I REALLY have no ill feelings toward you so please do not take offense to my above statements. I know how comments posted on the internet can be misconstrued, and people can easily take offense to them when that was not the intention of the poster.

      Your suggestion about selling the media by weight is a valid suggestion. However I am not the person to make that change. If I sell the media by weight, and other dealers sell it by volume then this would add to the confusion. Cermedia would have to make the change and then others could follow.

      As stated before I have no control as to how the media is shipped from other dealers nor from the factory itself. However, in all of my dealings with Cermedia I have never received a box of MP2C that was stacked neatly. It has always been in a loose fill type of shipment in an oversized box (internal dimensions of the box were larger than the amount of media I ordered). The time it takes to neatly stack individual cubes of media into a shipping box is not a good use of an employees time. An automated machine would need to be installed to do this process efficiently and that would be an increase in overhead which would increase the cost to the customer. Pouring the MP2C cubes into a shipping box is much faster and it ensures that the customer will have the amount of media that is required for a specific volume of filtering equipment.
      Zac Penn.... Not an expert on Pump Testing, no matter what people may think!
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    10. #10
      blackmoon is offline Member
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      it's why chips and other materials prone to settling are sold by weight, not by volume, given the product will settle through shipping. You are paying for the weight sold not the volume.

    11. #11
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      Quote Originally Posted by Zac Penn View Post
      I just want to make sure I understand everything you have said correctly so I can better address this issue in the future...
      You discovered the shortage of media at the same time that you realized most of your media was breaking down and washing away from your shower? It doesn't seem fair to think that I shorted/cheated you out of media (at the time of purchase), when said media was missing from your filter due to breaking down. I feel the appropriate time to report such a shortage would be right after you received the shipment and opened the boxes. Not years after the purchase when the original quantity of media could not be verified due to erosion of the media, mixing of media from multiple sources, and shipping boxes being thrown away. I wish you would have come to me directly, even years after the purchase, and expressed your feelings about this issue so I would have at least known about it. Unfortunately that was not the case, and I was blindsided when I read on a message board that you and others think I was cheating people out of media. That is certainly not the case. It is just a misunderstanding as to the amount of media that is supposed to be delivered. Hopefully this thread helps to eliminate that confusion.
      I REALLY have no ill feelings toward you so please do not take offense to my above statements. I know how comments posted on the internet can be misconstrued, and people can easily take offense to them when that was not the intention of the poster.

      Your suggestion about selling the media by weight is a valid suggestion. However I am not the person to make that change. If I sell the media by weight, and other dealers sell it by volume then this would add to the confusion. Cermedia would have to make the change and then others could follow.

      As stated before I have no control as to how the media is shipped from other dealers nor from the factory itself. However, in all of my dealings with Cermedia I have never received a box of MP2C that was stacked neatly. It has always been in a loose fill type of shipment in an oversized box (internal dimensions of the box were larger than the amount of media I ordered). The time it takes to neatly stack individual cubes of media into a shipping box is not a good use of an employees time. An automated machine would need to be installed to do this process efficiently and that would be an increase in overhead which would increase the cost to the customer. Pouring the MP2C cubes into a shipping box is much faster and it ensures that the customer will have the amount of media that is required for a specific volume of filtering equipment.
      There simply is no reason to keep belaboring the point and pointing the finger back at the consumer as the problem. It's one of the reasons I opted to totally remove the product from my system.
      The reason I know of the shortage is that the amount I bought from you was put onto a different system, my qt set up, so the two sources of media were not mixed. I'm usually a stickler for maintaining my systems so my showers are cleaned every 3-4 months. I was seeing the sand-like debris in both systems and sure enough, when I did my shower cleanings I noticed significant deterioration of the media in both the pond and qt showers. On the qt side, there is no way that the media had broken down enough to make up the difference.

      Enough said, I'm glad you think the suggestion of being sold by weight is a valid one. As a dealer, I'm sure they would be open to you forwarding the suggestion given the concerns with the product. The fact is, the finger keeps getting pointed back to the consumer and I don't think that is a good thing, as a consumer. Thanks.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

      I'll say something when I feel I have something worth saying. I'm not a fan of flapping my lips just because they are there.

    12. #12
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      This has nothing to do with a purchase from Zac Penn or Deepwater Koi Innovations.

      FYI









      Total Count: 68 cubes
      Last edited by ricshaw; 01-30-2017 at 07:45 PM.

    13. #13
      Zac Penn's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Marilyn View Post
      There simply is no reason to keep belaboring the point and pointing the finger back at the consumer as the problem. It's one of the reasons I opted to totally remove the product from my system.
      The reason I know of the shortage is that the amount I bought from you was put onto a different system, my qt set up, so the two sources of media were not mixed. I'm usually a stickler for maintaining my systems so my showers are cleaned every 3-4 months. I was seeing the sand-like debris in both systems and sure enough, when I did my shower cleanings I noticed significant deterioration of the media in both the pond and qt showers. On the qt side, there is no way that the media had broken down enough to make up the difference.

      Enough said, I'm glad you think the suggestion of being sold by weight is a valid one. As a dealer, I'm sure they would be open to you forwarding the suggestion given the concerns with the product. The fact is, the finger keeps getting pointed back to the consumer and I don't think that is a good thing, as a consumer. Thanks.

      Okay. Good luck with you future koi endeavors.
      Zac Penn.... Not an expert on Pump Testing, no matter what people may think!
      904-288-6199
      Zac@DeepwaterKoi.com
      www.DeepwaterKoi.com


    14. #14
      Zac Penn's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by ricshaw View Post
      This has nothing to do with a purchase from Zac Penn or Deepwater Koi Innovations.

      FYI









      Total Count: 68 cubes
      You have to be kidding me...When did you receive that? I guess, at least for that shipment, they were wasting their labor time on neatly stacking the media before shipment. However, at least my math is correct and you received the correct number of cubes to fill a 1/2 cu ft of space.

      Thanks for the post.
      Zac Penn.... Not an expert on Pump Testing, no matter what people may think!
      904-288-6199
      Zac@DeepwaterKoi.com
      www.DeepwaterKoi.com


    15. #15
      Zac Penn's Avatar
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      I just updated the original post to better show what will be delivered when ordering Cermedia MP2C. Please let me know if you have any further questions.
      Zac Penn.... Not an expert on Pump Testing, no matter what people may think!
      904-288-6199
      Zac@DeepwaterKoi.com
      www.DeepwaterKoi.com


    16. #16
      Zac Penn's Avatar
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      Here are some old videos that show just how easily water passes through Cermedia compared to feather rock and lava rock...
      Zac Penn.... Not an expert on Pump Testing, no matter what people may think!
      904-288-6199
      Zac@DeepwaterKoi.com
      www.DeepwaterKoi.com


    17. #17
      Zac Penn's Avatar
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      Zac Penn.... Not an expert on Pump Testing, no matter what people may think!
      904-288-6199
      Zac@DeepwaterKoi.com
      www.DeepwaterKoi.com


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