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    Thread: Seneye Experiments

    1. #1
      icu2's Avatar
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      Seneye Experiments

      Seneye in test solution which measured about 2 ppm NH3/NH4+ with an API test kit:

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      I'll add a drop of liquid Prime periodically to see any effects.
      --Steve



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      Great thread u mad scientist.

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      This should be interesting.

      Cheryl

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      V.

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      So I added a drop at 9am and another at 3:45pm... each one moved NH3 UP. The first one jumped from .152 to 1.68 and the second drop from .156 to .164.
      Exactly the opposite effect I thought Prime would have on NH3 number. pH at the first drop was 7.61 and second was 7.57. My pH is naturally on the low side
      from the well. The rise in temp is just a byproduct of air temps finally moderating a little bit and getting above freezing for the first time in forever... but not from
      adding the Prime. I'll add a couple of more drops tomorrow to see if it changes at all... then I'll add BS to see how it effects the numbers.

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      I'd be interested if anyone has a theory as to why adding Prime, which I thought would convert NH3 to the more harmless NH4, seem to
      make the NH3 number higher.
      --Steve



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      SeaSideAquatics LLC is offline Supporting Member
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      I honestly think the nh3 reading is off or not working at all.

      Inam wondering if you chemical like pp or any other treatments that would throw off the reading.

      Sea Side Aquatics, LLC
      1332 S Claudina Street
      Anaheim, CA 92805
      www.SeaSideAquatics.com/pond

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      Quote Originally Posted by SeaSideAquatics, LLC View Post
      I honestly think the nh3 reading is off or not working at all.

      Inam wondering if you chemical like pp or any other treatments that would throw off the reading.
      Why do you say that?
      In the pond my NH3 reading registers .012-.016 and when I intentionally add a 2 ppm ammonia solution (by API measurement) it jumps in level to .178
      like I would think it would.
      --Steve



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      The shift in pH from the baking soda will be interesting.

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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      Why do you say that?
      In the pond my NH3 reading registers .012-.016 and when I intentionally add a 2 ppm ammonia solution (by API measurement) it jumps in level to .178
      like I would think it would.
      I placed 3 units in one pond and each read differently.

      All have same age slides.

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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      I'd be interested if anyone has a theory as to why adding Prime, which I thought would convert NH3 to the more harmless NH4, seem to
      make the NH3 number higher.
      Steve thanks so much for doing this experiment. It's quite interesting. Just wondering where you got the idea that prime converts NH3 to NH4 from. Is if from their website that states "Prime® converts ammonia into a safe, non-toxic form that is readily removed by the tank’s biofilter."?

      This is quite epic in that is throws a collection in a basket some facts about what prime does or does not do.
      Last edited by KoiRun; 01-16-2017 at 11:44 PM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by SeaSideAquatics, LLC View Post
      I placed 3 units in one pond and each read differently.

      All have same age slides.
      How much differently? And what read differently?
      --Steve



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      Quote Originally Posted by KoiRun View Post
      Steve thanks so much for doing this experiment. It's quite interesting. Just wondering where you got the idea that prime converts NH3 to NH4 from. Is if from their website that states "Prime® converts ammonia into a safe, non-toxic form that is readily removed by the tank’s biofilter."?

      This is quite epic in that is throws a collection in a basket some facts about what prime does or does not do.
      I read it on the bottle, but yes, that was where I got the assumption. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the process?
      It also states: "Prime detoxifies nitrite and nitrate, allowing the biofilter to more efficiently remove them. It will also detoxify
      any heavy metals found in the tap water at typical concentration levels...."
      --Steve



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      Quote Originally Posted by montwila View Post
      The shift in pH from the baking soda will be interesting.
      And the associated increase in NH3 reading in theory when the ph goes up.
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      I am not sure how the sensor on the Seneye works or what would interfere with the sensor that could be mistaken for ammonia. The first thing I would try is to measure the ammonia concentration of distilled water. It should be 0.000. Then, I would add Prime to the distilled water to see if there is something about Prime that causes a false positive reading for ammonia. I would also add baking soda to bring the pH up to 8.3, In distilled water, neither the addition of Prime or baking soda should change the ammonia reading. If either does, then the readings from the Seneye are not accurate.

      Assuming the Seneye is accurate, then adding baking soda, because it raises pH, should convert more NH4+ to NH3, so the Seneye should read a higher ammonia concentration. Also, as temperature increases, more NH4+ will shift to NH3.

      Here is a link to a calculator that gives free ammonia based on total ammonia, temperature, and pH. This link is far more precise than the table that is included in the Koi Calculators link. The tables are based on the work by the same professor. At pH 7.61, total ammonia of 2.0 ppm, and temperature of 40.1 deg F (4.50 deg C), the free ammonia concentration should be 0.0097 ppm. When you added the Prime, the pH went to 7.57 and the temperature had risen to 42.4 deg F (4.78 deg C). Based on the temperature and pH change, if total ammonia was still 2.0 ppm, then the free ammonia (forgetting about the effect of Prime) should have been 0.0091 ppm. If you add baking soda and bring the pH up to 8.3, keeping the temperature at 42.4 deg F and the total ammonia at 2.0 ppm, I would expect the free ammonia to jump to 0.0478 ppm Prime should reduce the free ammonia, but as I stated, I do not know whether Prime interferes with the Seneye measurements.

      Remember, too, that the precision of the API total ammonia test is not all that good. Unless you are using a calibrated colorimeter to read the color of the test vial, even if you have outstanding color perception, if it looks like 2.0, the best you can say is that the total ammonia is more than about 1.5 and not more than about 3.

      What does Seneye claim for the precision of its free ammonia reading at concentrations that low? If the meter reads to 0.001, I doubt it is accurate at that level. The error would be at least +/- 0.001, and could be as high as +/- 0.010.
      Last edited by RickF; 01-17-2017 at 09:58 AM. Reason: Originally, I took the temperatures as C, when they were F. I have recalculated to correct for this.

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      Rick I think you've entered temp in F instead of C on the ammonia calculator.
      Last edited by KoiRun; 01-17-2017 at 09:47 AM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by KoiRun View Post
      Rick I think you entered F instead of C on the ammonia calculator.
      you are correct. The calculator only accepts C, and I did not notice (although I should have) that what Steve posted was F. I will recalculate and edit my post accordingly. That will make the numbers much lower than what I posted originally, which will make it even less likely that the Seneye could measure values that low.

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      Rick i had my seneye probe in distilled water for 72 hrs and the lowest reading i got was 0.016 either my seneye is off by that much or maybe the plastic cup i used had some sort of ph in it or it is not true distilled water purchased at walfart.. lol i am trying to get an answer from seneye support for thier accuracy in +,- values but so far unable to connect with anyone who knows, support says you should call and talk with an engineer, well at 2.20 cents a minute it could get a little expensive . Still trying to getan answer thru emai..it shouldnt be that difficult. I do like the product but what good is it if its not accurate. I purchased an ammonia aler t wafer also to compare readigs .
      Last edited by bobbd; 01-17-2017 at 12:09 PM.

    19. #19
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      Quote Originally Posted by RickF View Post
      I am not sure how the sensor on the Seneye works or what would interfere with the sensor that could be mistaken for ammonia. The first thing I would try is to measure the ammonia concentration of distilled water. It should be 0.000. Then, I would add Prime to the distilled water to see if there is something about Prime that causes a false positive reading for ammonia. I would also add baking soda to bring the pH up to 8.3, In distilled water, neither the addition of Prime or baking soda should change the ammonia reading. If either does, then the readings from the Seneye are not accurate.
      This sounds like a good thing to try next.
      --Steve



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      Quote Originally Posted by bobbd View Post
      Rick i had my seneye probe in distilled water for 72 hrs and the lowest reading i got was 0.016 either my seneye is off by that much or maybe the plastic cup i used had some sort of ph in it or it is not true distilled water purchased at walfart.. lol i am trying to get an answer from seneye support for thier accuracy in +,- values but so far unable to connect with anyone who knows, support says you should call and talk with an engineer, well at 2.20 cents a minute it could get a little expensive . Still trying to getan answer thru emai..it shouldnt be that difficult. I do like the product but what good is it if its not accurate. I purchased an ammonia aler t wafer also to compare readigs .
      I too like the Seneye but for what it costs (including mark-up) it's probably safe to say it's not going to provide that kind of accuracy you guys are looking for. Just from looking at the costs of what are considered the creme of the crop in environmental sensors from https://www.atlas-scientific.com/ I doubt the Seneye has the same quality probes. But like I said compared to using test kits that are very hard to read and annoying to do it's a big step up.

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