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  • Results 1 to 19 of 19

    Thread: What if... moving-bed to shower conversion

    1. #1
      kimini is offline Senior Member
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      What if... moving-bed to shower conversion

      Take a moving-bed filter module, remove the diffuser, add a perforated plate and presto, a shower filter. Someone pointed out that at best, a moving-bed filter sees ~2% oxygen, but a shower can see 10x that because air is passing over it. Theoretically then, converting a moving-bed to a shower should make its efficiency increase by roughly 10x.

      I know that K1-type media doesn't have the surface area like the media used in showers. The thing is, about every 10 years in this hobby everyone gets excited about the next great filter design that promises to cure everything, and it always includes a new media that has much higher surface area than current products. Remember when everyone used gravel? That worked great - for a while - until the bacteria plugged up the pores and killing its efficiency, and it was a PITA to clean because you couldn't clean out the internal pores. Remember lava rock? Same thing. Remember expanded clay? Same thing. So how does Cermedia/whatever sidestep this exact same clogging mechanism? I'm told that "if you feed it clean water it won't have a problem." Water coming out of a particulate filter is never perfectly clean, but the real problem is the natural cycling of the bacteria itself, that it can grow and live in microscopic pores, which is great, but when it dies, it dies in-place where the detritus can't be removed. The internal pores become packed with waste, reducing the surface area to no better than gravel over time, and while new media can be purchased it's very expensive. Obviously the life of Cermedia-type materials depends upon a lot of variables including number of fish, food loading, water turnover rate, type of particulate filter, etc, but it seems to me like plastic media is a functional middle ground where clogging won't be an issue.
      Last edited by kimini; 01-10-2017 at 10:53 AM.
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    2. #2
      MCAsan is offline Senior Member
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      Remember the flow flow rate is probably very different between a fluid bed and a shower. If a shower is the main bio converter you ideally want 100% or more of the pond to fllow over it each hour. But depending on the size of the fluid bed, pipes and pump.....the flow is likely far less than 100% of the pond volume (unless it is a tiny pond).

      Also you need a mechanical stage that can handle the flow rate to feed a shower. Two come to mind: UltraSieve III (ideally with 200micron screen) or an RDF (BlueEcho or Profidrum). If you pump water free from undissolved solids to the top of the shower and keep light off the media, you should not have much problem with media clogging. Dying biofilm will eventually wash out of the shower stack.

      Plastic media is OK for nitrification. I have matting cartridges that would just fine in the shower. But they do not have the deep pores needed for bacteria to do denitrification. For both nitrification and denitrification in a shower you need something like a ceramic media, sintered glass media, or a rock like pumice, feather rock, or lava rock.

      The reason I have matting right now.....the 8 cubic feet of Cermedia MP2C I had started to rapidly erode and fall apart. Many other report similar experiences.

      This spring I will experiment with sintered glass media.
      Last edited by MCAsan; 01-10-2017 at 12:44 PM.

    3. #3
      kimini is offline Senior Member
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      Good points. I already have a drum filter with a 65-micron screen. The pond will be 4-5000 (not done digging) and the flow rate will be probably 3500 gph or so.
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    4. #4
      ricshaw is offline Senior Member
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      In a shower filter, I think you will find other media will perform better than K1.

      My experience is feather rock performed better than lava rock or plastic bio barrels in the same shower filter.

      BTW: The bio barrels performed great in an Ethan foam fractionator.

    5. #5
      catfish whiskers's Avatar
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      A shower filter can be made from almost any container, as long as the media is not submerged under water. I'm using both Cermedia and feather rock, and happy with both, although feather rock is far cheaper and more durable. If You are pre filtering Your water , the shower media should almost never need cleaning , and Your RDF at 65 micron is more than enough pre filtration. The waters force from the amount of flow over a shower also helps to keep the media clean.Birdman came up with a formula for shower flow that works well and His feather rock never needed cleaning. I think He said 2,000 GPH for every Sq ft of surface area , correct Me if I'm wrong Steve ? That's surface area only, not volume, so theoretically, if You did 4,000 GPH, a stack of 1 ft X 2ft containers would have enough flow to be self cleaning. There is a source for feather rock in Chatsworth , Ca. https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...utor-in-So-Cal.

    6. #6
      catfish whiskers's Avatar
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      Another great shower media is Seaside Aquatics Bio House, cost less than Cermedia , and slightly more than feather rock.
      I bought a lot of it for My next shower build based on some Friends that have had great results with it. It does not erode from water force, and is very porous , so theoretically has far more surface area than feather rock.

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...PECIAL-PRICING.

    7. #7
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      Quote Originally Posted by kimini View Post
      Take a moving-bed filter module, remove the diffuser, add a perforated plate and presto, a shower filter. Someone pointed out that at best, a moving-bed filter sees ~2% oxygen, but a shower can see 10x that because air is passing over it. Theoretically then, converting a moving-bed to a shower should make its efficiency increase by roughly 10x.

      I know that K1-type media doesn't have the surface area like the media used in showers. The thing is, about every 10 years in this hobby everyone gets excited about the next great filter design that promises to cure everything, and it always includes a new media that has much higher surface area than current products. Remember when everyone used gravel? That worked great - for a while - until the bacteria plugged up the pores and killing its efficiency, and it was a PITA to clean because you couldn't clean out the internal pores. Remember lava rock? Same thing. Remember expanded clay? Same thing. So how does Cermedia/whatever sidestep this exact same clogging mechanism? I'm told that "if you feed it clean water it won't have a problem." Water coming out of a particulate filter is never perfectly clean, but the real problem is the natural cycling of the bacteria itself, that it can grow and live in microscopic pores, which is great, but when it dies, it dies in-place where the detritus can't be removed. The internal pores become packed with waste, reducing the surface area to no better than gravel over time, and while new media can be purchased it's very expensive. Obviously the life of Cermedia-type materials depends upon a lot of variables including number of fish, food loading, water turnover rate, type of particulate filter, etc, but it seems to me like plastic media is a functional middle ground where clogging won't be an issue.
      LOL! I didn't think anyone was a skeptical as I am!LOL But, I've met my match. Everything you state is mostly true and, as I mentioned before, some hobbyists just don't understand how to PROPERLY install/use a particular piece of filtration equipment, and then when their "new" idea/diy project fails to work as expected, the first thing they want to do is point fingers, usually in the wrong direction. So, to extrapolate from this thread, several have basically said the same thing about the best way to use a shower - proper flow rate of well cleaned water!

      I believe catfish whiskers provided the suggested flow rate/sq ft of surface area that Birdman discovered worked best for his shower design/units. I'm current using 4 sq ft StakPak trays in my shower with a flow rate of roughly 6000gph. Adding this system to the already existing two other filter systems within my pond, I noticed a dramatic change in the performance of the system after only a couple weeks. Many years ago, when the Momotaro Bakki Showers were first introduced, it was in the UK to start. Magazine articles were produced by Koi Nations and a couple other magazines. The discussion about what was observed raised much skepticism especially based on HOW they were installed. Some with NO pre-filtration and some with simple settling chambers. This was before the advent of sieves and hobby friendly rdf units. So, much of the information was that it wasn't necessary to provide extremely clean water to the shower provided enough flow rate was provided to cause the particulates, through the crashing of the water through diffusion, and the break up of the molecules of water, would basically make the unit self-cleaning. Considering that the Bacteria House media, designed my Momotaro, was made of highly fired ceramic product, I guess you could say it's been around for a bit more than 10 years. So far, there have been several different products of fired ceramic made for this purpose. We call them "knock offs", but they seem to provide something a bit different in each product. Some are simply made/copied to just make money while others appear to function very well. While Cermedia has gotten somewhat of a bad rap lately due to what I believe was a badly manufactured product run, all the media in the Zakki shower units we've installed are still in quite fine condition. There is slight wear on some pieces after 3-4 years of use, but overall, no problems like what some have posted. Again, if it's not installed/used properly in a DIY unit, it could allow some of the media to vibrate against itself due to the flow rate and this constant action can cause material like this to disintegrate. But, there certainly was an issue with this bad batch.

      Slough off of dying aerobic bacteria in ANY bio filter will cause the media, regardless of type, to begin to clog if not maintained properly. Again, if a person thinks any filter is totally and completely self-cleaning, and that it requires NO HUMAN INTERVENTION EVER, then they're looking for a pipe dream. Plastic media is not truly a good media for a shower unit as it doesn't provide the necessary porosity as mentioned, to include a small amount of denitrification which, I believe, is part of the real key to a shower outperforming ANY other type of bio filter ever created.

      You mention gravel, rock and lava material in years gone by. Well, they were as inventive and thought provoking back in their day as any of the newer, current designed products are today. I remember, back in the 70's, my father-in-law refused to buy a color TV because they hadn't been "perfected" after being on the market since the mid 60s! Sound familiar?LOL

      Your real issue here, that is heading you into the realm of pond malfunction, is the size of the pond vs the stated desired flow rate. You mention a 4-5000gal pond with a turnover of 3500gph! I would highly suggest you revisit your thought process on this and maybe read a few of the filtration stickies. Believe it or not, a pond under 10,000gal should have a turnover of roughly 1 1/2 times to volume per hour.
      Mike

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      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

    8. #8
      catfish whiskers's Avatar
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      I Think Mike has covered EVERYTHING in one post!
      There is lots of experience Here, and We won't steer You wrong.
      Unfortunately , many of the Koi equipment manufacturers overrate their products to make a sale, but We will give You real world advice gained from many years of trial and error , and wasted time and money.

    9. #9
      kimini is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by koiman1950 View Post
      LOL! I didn't think anyone was a skeptical as I am!LOL But, I've met my match.....
      Quote Originally Posted by koiman1950 View Post
      ... Your real issue here, that is heading you into the realm of pond malfunction, is the size of the pond vs the stated desired flow rate. You mention a 4-5000gal pond with a turnover of 3500gph! I would highly suggest you revisit your thought process on this and maybe read a few of the filtration stickies. Believe it or not, a pond under 10,000gal should have a turnover of roughly 1 1/2 times to volume per hour.
      There are sooo many better ways of delivering advice...
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    10. #10
      koiman1950's Avatar
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      Well, the first part was only done in a joking manner. Get over yourself, but better yet, do it yourself. I'm done. Sorry it wasn't the warm and fuzzy approach you were looking for. Just keepin' it real!
      Mike

      check out our website at: http://www.pond-life.net




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    11. #11
      MCAsan is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by kimini View Post
      There are sooo many better ways of delivering advice...

      Considering you asked for advice and did not pay for what you got......

    12. #12
      kimini is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by MCAsan View Post
      Considering you asked for advice and did not pay for what you got......
      Say you're thirsty and ask for a glass of water, so someone hands you a glass. You take a drink and burn yourself because the water you were handed is 197 degrees - and you're made fun of for complaining. But you're saying "considering you asked for a glass of water" you wouldn't complain, right? But hey, thanks for the comments while at the same time not contributing to the actual discussion, but it's okay since you didn't have to pay for it, LOL.
      Last edited by kimini; 01-11-2017 at 12:08 AM.
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    13. #13
      MCAsan is offline Senior Member
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      those are your words, not mine.

    14. #14
      mplskoi is offline Supporting Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by kimini View Post
      There are sooo many better ways of delivering advice...
      Also better ways of receiving it.

    15. #15
      Rufretic is offline Senior Member
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      It amazes me how ungrateful people can be for great advice

    16. #16
      koiman1950's Avatar
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      It's all about the "political correctness" of the written word! I'm just not one who cares about the PC thing!
      Mike

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    17. #17
      coolwon is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by kimini View Post
      There are sooo many better ways of delivering advice...

      You just never ever know what's simmering in a brain.

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      I agree; emerged media will always be the answer - like trickle tower or Bakki shower. Air contains 21,000ppm O2 while water can hold AT BEST [very cold and oxygenated] 14ppm.

    19. #19
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      Just to wade in this discussion on the late side, I think going with a shower is a great idea. I have found that plastic K-1 had a tendency to create splashing out of the sides of the shower, while bioballs did not, and cermedia did not. If you can afford a porous material, like bakki house or cermedia or feather rock, those sound like good options, although you can expect them to clog somewhat, depending on how clean the water is that you are pouring through the shower. However, I had a DIY shower for some time that consisted of bioballs, fed by water going through a sieve (300 micron) and it appeared to keep up with my bioload and give me good water parameters. I later changed over to and RDF feeding Zakki showers with cermedia...still good water parameters (heavier stocking though).

      I personally believe that the bacteria, which forms a rather tough slime colony, is quite versatile in where it makes a home and effectively performs its function. As for the denitrifying bacteria, I'm sure they are equally opportunistic, and given porous filter media, will find suitable places to colonize and function. It should be pointed out that the purpose of a shower is to remove ammonia and nitrites--and not to remove nitrates. I know that gets discussed, but that is not the primary purpose for a shower filter. There are other types of filtrtion systems that some people build in order to remove nitrates, but most people simply keep this relatively harmless chemical in control by water changes, so whether the shower does this for us is less important than whether it is removing ammonia and nitrite.

      As for the flow of water, yes, it also occurred to me that it would help your system to increase the flow over your shower(s) to at least 1-1.5 times the pond volume per hour, regardless of the kind of media you use.

      Good luck with it...keep us posted with some pics as you work on your project, please!
      My Current 13,000 gallon Pond Build: https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...ot-in-Illinois

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