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Thread: Shiro Utsuri Please judge.

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    Shiro Utsuri Please judge.



    Please let me have the good and the bad points of this Shiro Utsuri. What makes a good shiro for showing?

    OK so 46 Views and no one has opinion on this koi? Good, Bad or Ugly? If it is rubbish feel free to say so and why! I would just like some honest feedback.
    Last edited by niceshowa; 01-05-2017 at 03:21 PM.

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    Hadn't seen this thread until just now. FWIW - the body is short and heavy. The colors seem good but the pattern is lacking for showing. The other quality that seems to be somewhat overlooked when considering a Shiro or a Tancho variety is how they handle the stress of being bowled. Many will show a pinking of the skin which really detracts from all the other inherent qualities regardless. So, first is body conformation, second is skin/depth or thickness of color and last is pattern assuming you're competing with fish over 24" or more.
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    Look very similar to my Shiro Utsuri


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    Quote Originally Posted by koiman1950 View Post
    Hadn't seen this thread until just now. FWIW - the body is short and heavy. The colors seem good but the pattern is lacking for showing. The other quality that seems to be somewhat overlooked when considering a Shiro or a Tancho variety is how they handle the stress of being bowled. Many will show a pinking of the skin which really detracts from all the other inherent qualities regardless. So, first is body conformation, second is skin/depth or thickness of color and last is pattern assuming you're competing with fish over 24" or more.
    Many thanks for the comments. I am very happy with all your comments but need help in understanding "the body is short and heavy" My confusion is I was concerned it was a bit long and thin! So perhaps you could explain in a bit more detail. Just trying to learn the finer points. The shiro is 18months old and 45cm.

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    Thanks for sharing Hung, they are indeed very, very similar! You must have good taste too!!! Do you like shiros?

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    Quote Originally Posted by niceshowa View Post
    Many thanks for the comments. I am very happy with all your comments but need help in understanding "the body is short and heavy" My confusion is I was concerned it was a bit long and thin! So perhaps you could explain in a bit more detail. Just trying to learn the finer points. The shiro is 18months old and 45cm.
    Looking at the head and shoulder width, and then the overall length along with the back edge of the odome, you see the shape is actually a bit front heavy. This could be genetics or it could be how/when it's being fed. Learning to understand tosai and nisai as to which ones should/could be "pushed" for growth is an art. It takes many years of raising small fish to get to understand what to look for. It also greatly increases the price!
    Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by niceshowa View Post
    Thanks for sharing Hung, they are indeed very, very similar! You must have good taste too!!! Do you like shiros?
    I do like shiro utsuri, my taste of shiro is : black skull (which i believe it will have good sumi in the future), white skin, and not too much sumi when they are tosai. Here is my progress of my SU:

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    Quote Originally Posted by koiman1950 View Post
    Looking at the head and shoulder width, and then the overall length along with the back edge of the odome, you see the shape is actually a bit front heavy. This could be genetics or it could be how/when it's being fed. Learning to understand tosai and nisai as to which ones should/could be "pushed" for growth is an art. It takes many years of raising small fish to get to understand what to look for. It also greatly increases the price!
    Many thanks Koiman1950 for the reply, that makes far more sense now! and I agree. To me the word body relates more to the part behind the pectoral fins, I know body includes the whole koi but we talk about head shoulders and tail as being separate to the body!! Do you think as the Koi growth slows down the body will catch up in volume?

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    Thanks for the photos Hung, Great to see how the koi has develop in a short space of time. I agree with you on the lack of sumi as you can end up with a nearly all black koi. I like the way the volume of this koi has increased with the developed of the sumi. I get the impression that there is more sumi to come? Is you water hard or soft?

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    My opinion is a little different, I like more sumi on my su, around 50/50. But I do have to say, both of the ones posted in this thread are quite attractive, maybe I'll have to get another to have bothe types of shiro because it would make a nice contrast in the pond. Both of these su look to have very nice ink black sumi which is what makes a su look so good IMO. The skin also looks good on both. Although I do think the second one posted may have a little better body, I don't think the first one is too bad for a shiro, they topically don't have bodies as good as some of the other types. Nice koi, I look forward to seeing how they develope in the future.

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    I think the point is with shiros is that the sumi develops slowly, so if you start with a 50/50 sumi pattern as a Tosai you end up with 80/20 in a few years later on, a nearly all black koi with a few white places. So by selecting Tosai with more white you end up with a better chance of getting to 50/50 or better still 40/60. Which I believe the current trend is to have more white on shiros.

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    Quote Originally Posted by niceshowa View Post
    I think the point is with shiros is that the sumi develops slowly, so if you start with a 50/50 sumi pattern as a Tosai you end up with 80/20 in a few years later on, a nearly all black koi with a few white places. So by selecting Tosai with more white you end up with a better chance of getting to 50/50 or better still 40/60. Which I believe the current trend is to have more white on shiros.
    I agree with what your saying but both of these shiros are pretty far developed and I doubt either have a chance of getting to 40/60. Both these tosai had very little sumi to begin with and now after more has come up they may be around 20/80. I wasn't clear on my statement though, I like them to be around 50/50 finished. You are also correct that 40/60 is more popular, that's just not what I personally like the best. I would never recommend getting a tosai that is 50/50 but to get them to turn out closer to what I like, they would typically need a lot more than what either of these two had at tosai. My point was that I typically like the shiros with more sumi but these shiros, even though they have more white, are still beautiful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by niceshowa View Post
    Many thanks Koiman1950 for the reply, that makes far more sense now! and I agree. To me the word body relates more to the part behind the pectoral fins, I know body includes the whole koi but we talk about head shoulders and tail as being separate to the body!! Do you think as the Koi growth slows down the body will catch up in volume?
    When you talk about body, that should include the ENTIRE body from the nose to the tail stop (odome). You want to see a streamline, strong shouldered fish with a tail stop that doesn't thinly fade into the caudal fin. It should have some stoutness to it even at a young age.

    Quote Originally Posted by niceshowa View Post
    I think the point is with shiros is that the sumi develops slowly, so if you start with a 50/50 sumi pattern as a Tosai you end up with 80/20 in a few years later on, a nearly all black koi with a few white places. So by selecting Tosai with more white you end up with a better chance of getting to 50/50 or better still 40/60. Which I believe the current trend is to have more white on shiros.
    The amount of sumi visible at a young age has more to do with genetics and what you see isn't always want you get, that's true. But, in my experience, I've seen, based on selection/quality level being selected from, that the sumi doesn't really change as much as you think. If it's there at tosai, even as underlying sumi, it will depend on the environment it's kept in and the genetic disposition that will create the final look. Yes, there has been a movement among serious Shiro breeders to improve the overall look of Shiro Utsuri by creating more white within a black ground based fish. This shows more refinement in the breeding program and culling expertise of the breeder. However, any smart breeder is going to provide a product that SELLS, and to that end, will have a selection of fish who's patterns run the gammut from heavy to light. That way they can provide what YOU are looking for. Unless your spending five figures, they really don't put that much into it other than marketing what's popular! So, look for good body, good strong clean colors and then decide what type of pattern you like. YOU have to look at it every day, no one else!
    Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by niceshowa View Post
    Thanks for the photos Hung, Great to see how the koi has develop in a short space of time. I agree with you on the lack of sumi as you can end up with a nearly all black koi. I like the way the volume of this koi has increased with the developed of the sumi. I get the impression that there is more sumi to come? Is you water hard or soft?
    my water 's pH is around 8-8.5, all koi with sumi that I have handled are well developed except this goshiki. I am still waiting for its tranformation


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    Did you expect all the ground color to rise in the first 6 months? Looks like it's on a good track so far. Depending on water temps, the sumi or ground color and increase/decrease until it matures. Patience is a requirement in this hobby. Sometimes, actually too many times, people give up on really nice fish because they don't have the necessary patience needed to wait. I'
    ve seen fish take 8-10 years to fully develop/mature. There is no set timeline. Many who buy tosai, supposedly to learn from, that re-home them at Nisai, make the biggest mistakes in many cases. But, that's what keeps the breeders in business!
    Mike

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    Mike, I've got a question about the sumi on hung2703's Goshiki in its 2/2016 picture. What typically happens with Goshiki that develop sumi blotches like the one on the dorsal over time? I see that this spot on hung's went down a bit, but is this an early sign of a messy ground or a sign of a Kuro Goshiki?

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