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    Thread: Critique: Taniguchi Sanke Tosai

    1. #1
      Euryth's Avatar
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      Critique: Taniguchi Sanke Tosai

      This thread is for my Taniguchi Sanke Tosai that I graciously received summer '16. I can't really remember, but I believe it arrived at 10 inches or so in length before going into QT. This koi was also entered into the 2016 Atlanta Koi & Goldfish Show on October 7-9th at slightly over 12 inches and took 1st in Size 3 Sanke. Judges were very impressed with how show-ready this koi was, particularly noting its pattern, skin, beni and sumi quality. When I pulled all my koi on 11/23 to be measured, this Sanke was about 13.5-14 inches and was clearly one of my higher quality koi. I'd say the sumi and skin on this Sanke are one of the best in the pond, with that of my Kobayashi SU coming in second. I really like the frame and conformation on this Sanke as well, and am very fortunate to have been able to own it. I also happened to take pics of the vent, but am not sure if it would be able to be sexed accurately at its age and size. Could someone please provide critiques as well as help me sex this koi? Thanks!

      Here are the pics in order of dealer, arrival, QT and bowled:
      dealer pic #1
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      dealer pic #2
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      dealer pic #3
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      arrival pic #1 7/2/16
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      arrival pic #2
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      QT pic #1 8/4/2016
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      bowl pic #1 11/23/17
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      bowl pic #2
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      bowl pic #3
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      bowl pic #4
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      bowl pic #5
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      bowl pic #6
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      bowl pic #7
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      bowl pic #8
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      Vent pic - Male or Female?
      Name:  20161123_163930.jpg
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Size:  49.2 KB
      Last edited by Euryth; 12-15-2016 at 09:29 AM.

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      Here's the first of three videos I took:
      Arrival video:

    3. #3
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      QT Video:

    4. #4
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      Bowl Video:

    5. #5
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      Quote Originally Posted by Euryth View Post
      This thread is for my Taniguchi Sanke Tosai that I graciously received summer '16. I can't really remember, but I believe it arrived at 10 inches or so in length before going into QT. This koi was also entered into the 2016 Atlanta Koi & Goldfish Show on October 7-9th at slightly over 12 inches and took 1st in Size 3 Sanke. Judges were very impressed with how show-ready this koi was, particularly noting its pattern, skin, beni and sumi quality. When I pulled all my koi on 11/23 to be measured, this Sanke was about 13.5-14 inches and was clearly one of my higher quality koi. I'd say the sumi and skin on this Sanke are one of the best in the pond, with that of my Kobayashi SU coming in second. I really like the frame and conformation on this Sanke as well, and am very fortunate to have been able to own it. I also happened to take pics of the vent, but am not sure if it would be able to be sexed accurately at its age and size. Could someone please provide critiques as well as help me sex this koi? Thanks!

      Here are the pics in order of dealer, arrival, QT and bowled:
      dealer pic #1
      Name:  SSC_0274_268Koi.JPG
Views: 669
Size:  115.0 KB
      dealer pic #2
      Name:  SSC_0273_267Koi.JPG
Views: 665
Size:  129.5 KB
      dealer pic #3
      Name:  SSC_0272_266Koi.JPG
Views: 671
Size:  110.7 KB
      arrival pic #1 7/2/16
      Name:  20160630_181239.jpg
Views: 661
Size:  61.0 KB
      arrival pic #2
      Name:  20160630_181241.jpg
Views: 668
Size:  91.6 KB
      QT pic #1 8/4/2016
      Name:  20160804_143419.jpg
Views: 652
Size:  60.6 KB
      bowl pic #1 11/23/17
      Name:  20161123_163741.jpg
Views: 643
Size:  58.2 KB
      bowl pic #2
      Name:  20161123_163810.jpg
Views: 651
Size:  58.7 KB
      bowl pic #3
      Name:  20161123_163806.jpg
Views: 650
Size:  66.7 KB
      bowl pic #4
      Name:  20161123_163812.jpg
Views: 649
Size:  43.1 KB
      bowl pic #5
      Name:  20161123_163813.jpg
Views: 645
Size:  51.5 KB
      bowl pic #6
      Name:  20161123_163816.jpg
Views: 646
Size:  66.8 KB
      bowl pic #7
      Name:  20161123_163836.jpg
Views: 660
Size:  50.3 KB
      bowl pic #8
      Name:  20161123_164255.jpg
Views: 659
Size:  58.2 KB

      Vent pic - Male or Female?
      Name:  20161123_163930.jpg
Views: 644
Size:  49.2 KB
      How soft is the tissue surrounding the vent? Kinda looks male at first glance.
      Mike

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      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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      After looking more closely at the pics/vids I would say this one is finishing early which also point to it being male. The color quality is pretty decent though.
      Mike

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    7. #7
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      I just happen to be reading this and, at the same time I am working on my Koi shipment from Japan tomorrow. I am instant messaging my broker, who is on the phone with Taniguchi so I sent him the picture and he says he thinks it is female.
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      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    8. #8
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      Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
      I just happen to be reading this and, at the same time I am working on my Koi shipment from Japan tomorrow. I am instant messaging my broker, who is on the phone with Taniguchi so I sent him the picture and he says he thinks it is female.
      Russ, thanks for going the extra mile for me with this one! I do hope he was right lol and that this pic was enough for Mr. Taniguchi to make a sound judgment on, since I'm limited to just a cell phone's camera.

      Mike, I hadn't thought to check the surrounding tissue around the vent, but will do so next time I bowl this koi. I keep trying to look up pictures, guides and old threads on how to sex koi using the vents but just can't seem to get it. What signs should I be looking for with the vent?

      In regards to how finished this Sanke is, I still see underlying sumi but I've read that some types of Sanke sumi may not all rise up as they develop. The beni still has a good deal of sashi to still fill in as it grows, so I hope that the sumi doesn't peak before the beni does. Not sure if that's anything that can be determined so soon, but does that look like a real possibility? How do you all feel about its conformation and bulk? I thought I was feeding a great deal, but didn't want to push the new arrivals too hard this season.

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      The flesh around the immediate area of the vent on females should seem "swollen" and the tissue quite soft. On males, it's tighter and the flesh is much firmer. I was also looking at the body line on this one, but I agree, it may be too young to be sure. Good pic though. Very clear and leaves little to the imagination.

      As to the finishing part, if the growth is maintained at a slower pace like this, the shiroji usually thickens over winter between years 2-3 and will give the appearance at least, of being quite finished. I don't know enough about the specifics of Taniguchi's genetic lines, so I can't say any more with any certainty.
      Mike

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    10. #10
      Euryth's Avatar
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      Update 2/5/2018:

      I ran out of time this winter to cover the pond, pools or QT tanks & the koi seem to have no issues with it. Around Fall of 2017 when water temperatures were still very high, I had a death in the family & was too busy to do my usual weekly water changes. I continued my usual PP doses anr I ended up changing water every week & a half or more. When I returned from visiting family, I noticed both of my Sanke either lost beni or had entire plates break up.

      This Taniguchi lost some beni in the head pattern, and some of the steps show beni going through changes. I'm not sure if they're on the verge of breaking, if the beni will hang in there and strengthen as "her" skin thickens, or if the koi has "finished" despite still having sashi. I only bothered taking some in-pool pics to show how much of the head pattern was lost. Thoughts? I'm extremely bummed by this, since I don't know if I've ruined this koi or something?
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      Marilyn's Avatar
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      I'm sorry about the death in the family. It is so hard to lose loved ones.

      On your Sanke, well, the beni is still there and hasn't broken entirely which means there is a bit of hope. Younger koi tend to rebound a bit and older koi have more trouble doing so.
      I want to ask more about the heat you mentioned. How did this translate to the pond water temps and were they sudden?
      The reason I ask is sudden heat swings to above optimal pond temps (optimal top end being 80-82) can do a number on beni.
      A dealer told me this years ago as he had a friend selling koi in Viet Nam and said that beni was harder for them to preserve while koi that were sumi dominant did better. As a matter of fact, he said it was not uncommon in the tropical climates for koi hobbyists to use chillers to maintain a better water temp for aiding the beni on their prized koi.

      As a matter of course for us in the US, that is often why people advocate for deeper ponds. There are other benefits to deeper ponds as well, but a deeper pond maintains a steadier water temp and doesn't experience the temp swings that can create beni (and health) issues.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

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    12. #12
      Euryth's Avatar
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      Thank you for that Marilyn, it really means a lot.

      I suspected heat may be the cause, but the water was about 82 - 86F+ probably. I had the pool she was in shaded to offset direct sunlight & temps rising as a result. I kept the water up for months without an issue whatsoever through major temp swings & the only time I let the temps get that high I see beni issues smh.

      I make it a rule to change 30% - 40% water in my QT tanks every 4 or 5 days to offset the high temps. Chloram-x for dechlorinating & ammonia binding, PP dosage after 72 hours, chill day then water change. Worked like a charm for two years lol. Unfortunate thing is, all of my other gosanke and that large Goshiki had perfectly intact beni & no other health issues;it was literally only both of my Sanke. I was actually afraid to try owning another Sanke as a result.

      I wouldn't mind keeping her if she has a shot, but would rather try again with another Sanke if my mistake pushed her beni past recovery since my space is limited.

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      I understand, we had a tank of tosai caught in a sudden hot spell when we were still in California. It was firsthand experience with what sudden temps can do to beni. Russ caught it before it was awful but I know a couple did lose color.

      It can take a long time for beni to regenerate and there is no guarantee. I had one that damaged her beni (lost a scale in the beni plate) and while it did come back, it was a long process. For about two years, the scale was significantly lighter. On the third year it did blend in without notice but you're dealing with more scales than one.

      I'm glad the others did well through the swing. The more mature koi do seem to handle it better than the youngest but it still can be an issue for them. Ultimately, it is your call. I don't think anyone can say for sure that the issue will resolve and as I mentioned, it can take a long time. It may also be that it will be inherently weaker, too. Wish I had better absolutes for ya.
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      Euryth's Avatar
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      I could imagine that being pretty devastating to see with all that potential they had. That's what's eating me alive lol, when I next do a water change I'll update my other thread with my INC Sanke so people can see the extreme beni loss/damage she experienced.

      Is it even possible for beni on the head to regenerate? My thoughts would be once those cells are damaged it would cause irreversible damage to those that formed the head pattern. Is this correct? The crazy thing is, the other plates are "intact", the only true breaking occurred in that little piece of beni behind the left gill plate. It's now an island with barely orange leading scales. A few of the other plates may look like an extra row of sashi appeared, but still seem to show the same beni depth as the year prior.

      Even my tosai thrived during this time along with my eldest koi. Just these two Sanke, different breeders & bloodlines smh. I may look into another Taniguchi replacement to be safe . Think she can be shown again?

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      I would think the INC Sanke is a lost cause. I haven't seen pattern return on the head of a koi but I have seen tosai and young nisai regenerate some pattern lost from stress which can be illness but would include temperature swings.

      I had a lovely Kohaku that I suspected had experienced beni loss before I saw her. She had an unusual head pattern but everything looked normal. I decided it was still worth a gamble. She went 3 more years with no beni loss and then lost her head pattern. It's Murphy's Law that they will lose it where they least can afford to. To this day, everything else on that koi is rock solid but she has no head pattern. Not a good thing on Kohaku.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

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      Euryth's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Marilyn View Post
      I would think the INC Sanke is a lost cause. I haven't seen pattern return on the head of a koi but I have seen tosai and young nisai regenerate some pattern lost from stress which can be illness but would include temperature swings.
      The INC Sanke is way worse than this Taniguchi Sanke sadly. Are you referring to the Taniguchi being a lost cause?

      For the INC Sanke, the back half of the beni plate on the shoulder extending all the way to the dorsal fin is broken up, leaving an orange & yellow tinge where the full plate once was. Beni was so thick & was my most intense red beni of all my gosanke. Annoyingly, she kept her head pattern smh.

      Oh no! I'm sure her head is nice, white and clear though! I'm assuming Sanke without much of a head pattern aren't competitive at shows?

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      Sorry, I'm confusing which of yours lost beni in which location.

      The one that lost beni on the head will likely not have it return. I haven't seen beni reemerge on a head pattern. I have seen younger koi regain beni pattern on the body after stress of illness or heat, providing there was something to work with remaining. I still suspect the beni may be more fragile on these and may not hold up to growth well but that is a guess on my part. It's why I shared my story about my Kohaku. All the indicators were there to say the beni on her head may be an issue and ultimately it was.

      Regarding showing, that would entirely depend on the show and the competition, as well as the judges.
      I have seen koi in magazines from Japan that had a decidedly Bozu (bald) pattern do well in some of the local shows. I can't recall any like that doing well at something as large as the AJKS but they may, I just don't remember any doing so. Japanese judges really do focus on body structure and quality and place pattern last. Every so often you will see a koi with an amazing body and gorgeous skin, beni and perhaps sumi (if it is a Sanke) do well though they had a minimal amount of beni on the head.
      Showa tend to have a bit more leeway in this department. You can still have a robust head pattern even if the koi is minus what would be considered an ideal beni head pattern.

      One of the trends that has been occurring over the last few years is the Japanese aesthetic has modified. When I first entered the hobby, perfect three and four steps were highly coveted. Now, less traditional patterns are gaining a lot of favor. I actually heard a Japanese judge mention a pattern as lacking interest. It was a pattern that would have been almost ideal 10 years ago. This works in my favor as my own aesthetic has always favored koi with patterns that give the impression of movement.

      Japanese judges see the koi as a whole and while tastes evolve, that remains their mantra. The impression a koi provides is important.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

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      I have no expertise to offer but wanted to chime in and say I've learned a lot from this thread. Thanks!

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      Smile

      I heard the Judges that year had a Great Eye for Quality, Congrats!
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      nice sanke

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