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    Thread: koi with swollen eyes

    1. #1
      DBibbins's Avatar
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      koi with swollen eyes

      3 days ago I noticed my largest 12yr old male was swimming by himself and not coming for food. I pulled him yesterday and noticed his eyes and face were a little swollen, he has no signs of any scrapes, cuts, ulcer, body and skin/scales look great. Hes not sitting on bottom, no clammed fins and no flashing. No other fish in pond show any symptoms, they are active and still eating a little every couple days.

      Water temp 59, ph 8.3, kh 8-9 drops, nitrate 5, ammonia/nitrite 0. Filter cleaning and water changes every 4-5 days.

      I'm assuming he picked up something bacterial. The only other thing I can guess is hitting his head on pond walls or DIY retro BD, he looks exactly like a female did after spawning a couple years ago and getting banged up (the swelling went away within a week on her).

      I have on hand
      BGDX, I know its for gill disease but does it work for other bacterial infections? This has been in my medicine
      chest for a couple years (unopened bottle), how long does it last.
      Tricide Neo, It would have to be put on as a spray (1gal pkg) would I just spray his head or whole body?
      Amikacin (human strength) but no sterile saline, I'm sure I can get some.

      Should I treat with one of these options or should it be a wait and see seems how I dont know if its bacterial or injury. I dont want to wait to long as we have some very cold weather coming our way (pond is covered), but pulling and treating when its only 40ish air temps will be much more stressful for ME then the koi.

      Thanks Deb
      Happiness is adopting a mutt and my pond is FULL of Happiness....
      Deb

      My pond
      https://youtu.be/PR3Q2MInsQg

    2. #2
      koiman1950's Avatar
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      Can you get a couple pics Deb?
      Mike

      check out our website at: http://www.pond-life.net



      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

    3. #3
      Russell Peters's Avatar
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      Sounds like an internal infection t me.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    4. #4
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      I can probably gets some pics tomorrow Mike, if it's still light out before work I will if not it will be after.

      I was hoping nothing internal but being that we are going into winter just my luck it will be
      Happiness is adopting a mutt and my pond is FULL of Happiness....
      Deb

      My pond
      https://youtu.be/PR3Q2MInsQg

    5. #5
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      Funny I was just reading about aeromonas. Excerpt:

      "The disease has several presentations, ranging from an acute form characterized by septicemia with accompanying hemorrhages at the bases of fins, inappetence, and melanosis to a subacute to chronic variety in older fish, consisting of lethargy, slight exophthalmia, and hemorrhaging in muscle and internal organs (16)."

      From:
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2806660/
      Hope this helps.

      How long have you had your pond covered?
      How often are you still feeding?

      Good Luck Deb.

    6. #6
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      Decided to take a short video instead of trying to bowl Syracuse tonight. He is back hanging with the herd but I didnt feed today so not sure if hes eating, although he came right to me along with everyone else looking for food when I opened cover. That has to be a good sign even though his eyes are still swollen!
      I also wanted to add that I checked his entire body, no red, no veining, no lumps, no nothing that I could see when I had him bowled the other day.

      Edit from first post as it seems I cant read a thermometer, pond temp is 63 not 59

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eODhDX61VfQ


      In the 13 yrs I've had the pond other than the PH crash a few years ago the day I come home from vacation (lost 3 saved the rest), the only other 2 fish I lost were both internal. One with a tumor, lost him 3 months after tumor became noticeable. The other a female was day 1 eating, day 2 stopped eating, day 3 swelled like a balloon, day 4 covered with blisters and I decided to euthanize her. Hers was I believe septic from eggs and/or tumor and it claimed her life so fast.

      With that said my pond track record leads me to believe it is internal or injury. If injury time will heal, if internal time will tell? Is there anything I should do in the meantime?

      Thanks
      Deb
      Happiness is adopting a mutt and my pond is FULL of Happiness....
      Deb

      My pond
      https://youtu.be/PR3Q2MInsQg

    7. #7
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      Quote Originally Posted by DBibbins View Post
      3 days ago I noticed my largest 12yr old male was swimming by himself and not coming for food. I pulled him yesterday and noticed his eyes and face were a little swollen, he has no signs of any scrapes, cuts, ulcer, body and skin/scales look great. Hes not sitting on bottom, no clammed fins and no flashing. No other fish in pond show any symptoms, they are active and still eating a little every couple days.

      Water temp 59, ph 8.3, kh 8-9 drops, nitrate 5, ammonia/nitrite 0. Filter cleaning and water changes every 4-5 days.

      I'm assuming he picked up something bacterial. The only other thing I can guess is hitting his head on pond walls or DIY retro BD, he looks exactly like a female did after spawning a couple years ago and getting banged up (the swelling went away within a week on her).

      I have on hand
      BGDX, I know its for gill disease but does it work for other bacterial infections? This has been in my medicine
      chest for a couple years (unopened bottle), how long does it last.
      Tricide Neo, It would have to be put on as a spray (1gal pkg) would I just spray his head or whole body?
      Amikacin (human strength) but no sterile saline, I'm sure I can get some.

      Should I treat with one of these options or should it be a wait and see seems how I dont know if its bacterial or injury. I dont want to wait to long as we have some very cold weather coming our way (pond is covered), but pulling and treating when its only 40ish air temps will be much more stressful for ME then the koi.

      Thanks Deb
      I would use the amikacin asap. But am unable to give you the proper dosage rate based on human form. Might get a hold of Rick on the khc committee. But based on your posting I feel that there is a good possibility of bacterial issue. I would also check the gills as well. Best of luck.

    8. #8
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      Hi Debbie:

      Sorry to hear this going into Winter.

      As Russell says it most likely is Bacterial (internal) if not caused by trauma. If it were trauma I would assume some other visual conditions would be observed. It should not manifest itself in the eyes unless it is a real concussion and I would assume something visual would also be present on the fishes exterior from the "injury". A concussion can cause swelling as can an internal bacterial infection of the forward swim bladder forcing pressure through the cranium and forcing the eyes to protrude or popeye (exophthalmia). Usually it affects one eye more than the other and in the video both eyes look very symmetrical compared to the cases I have seen. Hopefully you have caught it early if it is bacterial. The other cause might be Spring Viremia of Carp (SVC) usually associated as part of cold water spring start up or aeromonas alley. However it should probably be the entire fish not just the "head". Temperatures are dropping for you and you mention that this fish is 12 years old. Maybe it is near the end of its prime and no longer is able to fend off disease's that it once could thus the thought on SVC.

      Is the fish swimming at all head down or slightly up? This indicates infection of the swim bladders and possibly early osmotic problems.

      BGDX is a mild form of Oxolinic acid that Argents labs sold. It is old as they have been out of business for a few years now. However unopened and stored properly it may still be effective. I would use it if you chose to pull the fish for a "bath".

      How large it the fish? I can give you the dosage recommended by Duncan Griffith for 5% Amikacin. You need to do the math if yours is not 5%.

      Good Luck
      Last edited by montwila; 12-09-2016 at 07:53 PM.

    9. #9
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      After reading this I think it is highly unlikely to be SVC

      http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/vm106
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    10. #10
      montwila's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
      After reading this I think it is highly unlikely to be SVC

      http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/vm106
      Thank you for the article Russell. I have read it before.

      As I indicated in my post, it was simply a thought with the associated signs presented by the OP. I do believe this is Bacterial as I also indicated in my post.

    11. #11
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      I posted the link for Deb so she would not have to worry.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    12. #12
      montwila's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
      I posted the link for Deb so she would not have to worry.
      My mistake. Thank you for clarifying.

    13. #13
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      Monte, I hope you don't mind my asking for a little clarification regarding the oxolinic acid and BDGX.
      In my years of koi keeping, I was told that oxolinic acid was an effective broad spectrum treatment and needed a massive water change post use. The BDGX/Chloramine T treatment was very specifically for bacterial gill disease and UV light would degrade it sufficiently post use.
      I ask because I bought them separately because the implication was each had a specific use and was valuable in the koi keeping arsenal.

      Has the reasoning behind them shifted and they are essentially synonymous?
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    14. #14
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      I am reading over amikacin in Dr. Johnson's book. It list a table by fish length. For example, for a 22 inch fish you'll need 50mg. 'Human strength' amikacin should read 250mg/ml. You'll need to give .2ml (50mg). It suggest to dilute that with sterile saline to 3 ml total volume. Given IP (intra-peritoneal). He suggest to give every other day for no more than 3 doses. I would also check the expiry date on your bottle. He also says "it is generally agreed by folks who do, or have injected a lot of these particular drugs that after the third or fourth injection, a significant percentage of the treated fish will die; exhibiting severe neurological signs that include tetanic spasms, inversion, curling of the body, and extremely sudden death, usually associated with handling or any stress."
      Supplies needed would be 3ml syringe, 23 gauge needle (I think), and sterile saline.
      Though I have no experience with this, given the risk for death implied, I would just catch the fish quickly and inject it IM (in the muscle) which is also "acceptable" (Dr. J). Less stress... just my 2 cents.
      Last edited by KoiRun; 12-09-2016 at 04:35 PM.

    15. #15
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      Quote Originally Posted by KoiRun View Post
      I am reading over amikacin in Dr. Johnson's book. It list a table by fish length. For example, for a 22 inch fish you'll need 50mg. 'Human strength' amikacin should read 250mg/ml. You'll need to give .2ml (50mg). It suggest to dilute that with sterile saline to 3 ml total volume. Given IP (intra-peritoneal). He suggest to give every other day for no more than 3 doses. I would also check the expiry date on your bottle. He also says "it is generally agreed by folks who do, or have injected a lot of these particular drugs that after the third or fourth injection, a significant percentage of the treated fish will die; exhibiting severe neurological signs that include tetanic spasms, inversion, curling of the body, and extremely sudden death, usually associated with handling or any stress."
      Supplies needed would be 3ml syringe, 23 gauge needle (I think), and sterile saline.
      Though I have no experience with this, given the risk for death implied, I would just catch the fish quickly and inject it IM (in the muscle) which is also "acceptable" (Dr. J). Less stress... just my 2 cents.
      It would be best to sedate. Especially in the 20"s sizes. Not fun to see a koi thrashing around with a needle stuck in it. It also gives an opportunity to do a good check of the koi. I personally have been surprised a few times. You can use the bag method but this can have issues as well. Am not an expert with amikacin and have only used it about 20 times on koi. I guess I was lucky using amikacin in regards with issues. Would like to add however that many times the full spectrum of injections were never needed. Usually two and sometimes just one injection is all that is needed. I have however overdosed a koi. It is not something you want to see.

    16. #16
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      Also if you're going to give IM I would reduce the volume to 1ml. That way it is quicker. I guess you'll need a couple of arm wrestlers to help you . But I've seen Dr. Loh on youtube handle koi for scraping. It would trash around initially then settle down very quickly. At that time ,get somebody to help you hold the fish firmly , inject, then throw it back in the pond.
      Last edited by KoiRun; 12-09-2016 at 05:59 PM.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Marilyn View Post
      Monte, I hope you don't mind my asking for a little clarification regarding the oxolinic acid and BDGX.
      In my years of koi keeping, I was told that oxolinic acid was an effective broad spectrum treatment and needed a massive water change post use. The BDGX/Chloramine T treatment was very specifically for bacterial gill disease and UV light would degrade it sufficiently post use.
      I ask because I bought them separately because the implication was each had a specific use and was valuable in the koi keeping arsenal.

      Has the reasoning behind them shifted and they are essentially synonymous?

      Hi Marylin:

      I hope all is well with you and yours this season. At the risk of hi-jacking Debs thread.

      The OP (Deb) says she has a bottle of BGDX not BDGX. BGDX was a product that was put out by Argent Laboratories here in Redmond, WA. which has since gone out of business. Yes, speculation is that BGDX was simply for Bacterial Gill Disease Treatment (tx). So yes, its primary sales point would be for that purpose. My understanding from the chemist at Argent was that is is a reduced strength of Oxilinic Acid. OA is what I was actually trying to buy from them that day. The chemist asked me several questions and determined that my skill level at that time (circa 2010) did not warrant selling me pure OA and said that this product was safer to use for bacterial infections. Oxillium was another product that Argent labs sold and certainly was/is a reduced strength of OA.

      My recommendation to Deb to use BGDX is because she actually has it on-hand and asked if it might be of some use. I believe it would help if this is bacterial and by using it as a bath she will not compromise the ponds systems. I believe that the active chemical does not target only active bacteria located on the gills (for BGD) but attacks bacteria where it finds it. The fish body will distribute the chemical through out its body being immersed in the bath with the chemical added. Thus reaching the swim bladders if there is an infection there that is causing this ailment.

      Chloramine - T Would probably be an excellent choice also as it does help with bacterial infections. However she did not mention having it on-hand. Since this is a single fish then I am not sure if it is worth the expense of using something in the entire pond system but it is an option. A large water change is often recommended after its use also. Just like OA.

      So yes, Oxolinic Acid is used as a broad spectrum treatment. I have never used it in the pond/system ( only as a dip or bath) and really cannot comment except it probably does need a large if not almost complete water change to remove it from the system to save the filters. I do not believe it "breaks" down and would need to be removed if used within a clean system. I do know that eventually it would be "used up" because of impurities within most ponds system. Even as a bath it can be used for a few days if there are no feces of excessive other organics in the tank. However if the water becomes fouled it will render it less effective and it will need to be changed or it loses its effectiveness.

      "Has the reasoning behind them shifted and are they essentially synonymous"?

      I believe all the above are different and not synonymous however could possibly over lap to some degree for some of their uses. Having each for its specific use as implied when you purchased them, is certainly a way of knowing exactly what you have and are treating for. No debate. I simply do not keep 18 different things in my "treatment toolbox" anymore. I like to keep it as simple as possible and still be effective. As you once told me: keeping healthy water will cure most of what causes these ailments.

      I cannot speak for the koi world but only to my knowledge and experience. My speculation is that a treatment is better than no treatment. BGDX is a product used as an antibiotic and could be used in this instance IMHO. I think any chemical or treatment needs to be considered before its use. Are there better treatments than the one that is available? Do we as guardians of our charges do something now or wait for the optimum treatment? I think these are all things we as individual keepers need to decide.

    18. #18
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      I can't imagine how that would be less stressful on the koi or you. It's less stressful for everyone and much safer to sedate them.

      If you reduce the volume to 1ml and it's supposed to have more, how does that work?
      Sandy
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      Last edited by kdh; 12-09-2016 at 07:12 PM.

    20. #20
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      Quote Originally Posted by montwila View Post
      Hi Marylin:

      I hope all is well with you and yours this season. At the risk of hi-jacking Debs thread.

      The OP (Deb) says she has a bottle of BGDX not BDGX. BGDX was a product that was put out by Argent Laboratories here in Redmond, WA. which has since gone out of business. Yes, speculation is that BGDX was simply for Bacterial Gill Disease Treatment (tx). So yes, its primary sales point would be for that purpose. My understanding from the chemist at Argent was that is is a reduced strength of Oxilinic Acid. OA is what I was actually trying to buy from them that day. The chemist asked me several questions and determined that my skill level at that time (circa 2010) did not warrant selling me pure OA and said that this product was safer to use for bacterial infections. Oxillium was another product that Argent labs sold and certainly was/is a reduced strength of OA.

      My recommendation to Deb to use BGDX is because she actually has it on-hand and asked if it might be of some use. I believe it would help if this is bacterial and by using it as a bath she will not compromise the ponds systems. I believe that the active chemical does not target only active bacteria located on the gills (for BGD) but attacks bacteria where it finds it. The fish body will distribute the chemical through out its body being immersed in the bath with the chemical added. Thus reaching the swim bladders if there is an infection there that is causing this ailment.

      Chloramine - T Would probably be an excellent choice also as it does help with bacterial infections. However she did not mention having it on-hand. Since this is a single fish then I am not sure if it is worth the expense of using something in the entire pond system but it is an option. A large water change is often recommended after its use also. Just like OA.

      So yes, Oxolinic Acid is used as a broad spectrum treatment. I have never used it in the pond/system ( only as a dip or bath) and really cannot comment except it probably does need a large if not almost complete water change to remove it from the system to save the filters. I do not believe it "breaks" down and would need to be removed if used within a clean system. I do know that eventually it would be "used up" because of impurities within most ponds system. Even as a bath it can be used for a few days if there are no feces of excessive other organics in the tank. However if the water becomes fouled it will render it less effective and it will need to be changed or it loses its effectiveness.

      "Has the reasoning behind them shifted and are they essentially synonymous"?

      I believe all the above are different and not synonymous however could possibly over lap to some degree for some of their uses. Having each for its specific use as implied when you purchased them, is certainly a way of knowing exactly what you have and are treating for. No debate. I simply do not keep 18 different things in my "treatment toolbox" anymore. I like to keep it as simple as possible and still be effective. As you once told me: keeping healthy water will cure most of what causes these ailments.

      I cannot speak for the koi world but only to my knowledge and experience. My speculation is that a treatment is better than no treatment. BGDX is a product used as an antibiotic and could be used in this instance IMHO. I think any chemical or treatment needs to be considered before its use. Are there better treatments than the one that is available? Do we as guardians of our charges do something now or wait for the optimum treatment? I think these are all things we as individual keepers need to decide.

      So you feel BGDX is a better option than amikacin?

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