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    Thread: Enough water change or too much?

    1. #21
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    2. #22
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      Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
      I know my water has a very clear, shiny look to it when it is right.
      Yes indeed that is the liquid glass look we used to discuss on the old NI BBS back in the day. When you see it, you know the water parameters are very likely spot on.

    3. #23
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      Last edited by KoiRun; 06-29-2016 at 11:41 PM. Reason: add more smiley face, added one uh uh
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    4. #24
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      You guys use a lot of abbreviations and I am new to koi pond so I don't always understand what you guys are talking about even at the end of The Forum TDC don't know what that is can get it from the conversation

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    5. #25
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      Quote Originally Posted by Wmurky View Post
      You guys use a lot of abbreviations and I am new to koi pond so I don't always understand what you guys are talking about even at the end of The Forum TDC don't know what that is can get it from the conversation

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      Sorry off topic

      Here's some links that might be helpful to you.......

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...on-Terms-Slang

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...-Info-Stickies


      Back to topic.....Thanks!
      Last edited by Goki56; 06-29-2016 at 10:55 AM.
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    6. #26
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      Quote Originally Posted by Wmurky View Post
      You guys use a lot of abbreviations and I am new to koi pond so I don't always understand what you guys are talking about even at the end of The Forum TDC don't know what that is can get it from the conversation

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      It is TDS - Total Dissolved Solids.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    7. #27
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      Ha I figured it out! For those with a pretty decent source water, change enough water so that your pond KH is similar to your tap water KH! Judging water by how shiny it looks is pretty much subjective IMO and reserved for the most experienced (again in IMHO). For a newbie/ nerd/ OCD - person like me I NEED NUMBERS NUMBER NUMBERS! Other parameters fall short, TDS - salt among other common things can affect it, Nitrate - too many variables (though I would consider this a close second), ORP - accuracy issues (?+/-), ammonia level - not accurate enough (API test). It's been said that water deteriorates as soon as you put koi in it, yeah by how much?
      Last edited by KoiRun; 06-29-2016 at 11:53 PM.
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    8. #28
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      Quote Originally Posted by koiman1950 View Post
      Sorry, but I take the same tack here as Russ. If you're looking for a definitive answer, you really shouldn't get one except to say it's up to you to decide. Learn to "read" your water by observing your fish's behavior and look. If they're very active and the colors are bright and strong, they're most likely happy. If they change that behavior at all, you need to find out why. That's basically it in a nutshell. A very wise person told me many years ago about maintenance and that is - find what works best for your system and "die" by that routine. The KISS theory comes to mind.
      The problem with this is that if you see behaviour change it could very well mean that it's too late, there has been a WQ issue that perhaps happened three weeks ago that went undetected.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Wmurky View Post
      You guys use a lot of abbreviations and I am new to koi pond so I don't always understand what you guys are talking about even at the end of The Forum TDC don't know what that is can get it from the conversation

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      Every profession or hobby will have its own jargon, slang, acronyms, and abbreviations. Great opportunity to learn.

    10. #30
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      Quote Originally Posted by KoiRun View Post
      The problem with this is that if you see behaviour change it could very well mean that it's too late, there has been a WQ issue that perhaps happened three weeks ago that went undetected.
      No one can tell you what to look for in your water. You have to learn what to recognize with time and experience.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

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    11. #31
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      Quote Originally Posted by KoiRun View Post
      Ha I figured it out! For those with a pretty decent source water, change enough water so that your pond KH is similar to your tap water KH! Judging water by how shiny it looks is pretty much subjective IMO and reserved for the most experienced (again in IMHO). For a newbie/ nerd/ OCD - person like me I NEED NUMBERS NUMBER NUMBERS! Other parameters fall short, TDS - salt among other common things can affect it, Nitrate - too many variables (though I would consider this a close second), ORP - accuracy issues (?+/-), ammonia level - not accurate enough (API test). It's been said that water deteriorates as soon as you put koi in it, yeah by how much?
      How much it deteriorates depends on you water and stocking levels. No one can answer this for you.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    12. #32
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      I have a simple method for determining if I need a water change. Once a week I take a good hard look at my water and if there are fish in it, I change out at least 50%. A few weeks ago I was on vacation and looked off the boat, didn't see the pond or fish, so I didn't do a water change. So far this method has worked out well for me for years.



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    13. #33
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      Sometime, your nose, eyes, and testing will tell you if you've done enough. Smelling bad, looking how much bubbles produced, and testing parameter will tell you if you need to do it more. Flow through system will take some of that variable away. Sometime 50% change for a quick refresh will help.


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    14. #34
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      Quote Originally Posted by jimfish98 View Post
      I have a simple method for determining if I need a water change. Once a week I take a good hard look at my water and if there are fish in it, I change out at least 50%. A few weeks ago I was on vacation and looked off the boat, didn't see the pond or fish, so I didn't do a water change. So far this method has worked out well for me for years.
      Same method I use

    15. #35
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      OK I get that I have the develop my skill at really looking at my water to determine the amount of water changes and whether it is enough. Please keep the advice coming on what to look for; I appreciate them a lot. I understand that it will take time and experience, but I really don't want to kill any fish while getting there. In the meantime what do you think of me keeping a close eye on my KH as a gauge (it's a fairly easy test) as to how much water to change. It will guaranty that I would not have a ph crash. Rick? RTB? Mike(s)? Steve(s)?
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    16. #36
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      Change in KH tells you more about the amount of acid that is being produced in the pond than it does about the need for water changes. Heavy rain can cause KH to drop, but that is not really a sign that you need more water changes unless you live in an area where the source water has a naturally high KH, and water changes are what you use to maintain the KH in the pond. Where I live, the source water has a KH that is < 17.85 ppm, so water changes will cause the KH to drop.

      If you want a number to follow, Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) might be somewhat better than KH, but TDS can be affected by things that are beneficial and things that are harmless as well as by things that are harmful, so in isolation, TDS is not a great indicator. Unless you know what is contributing to the TDS, it is not that useful.

      Oxidation/Reduction Potential (ORP) is another tool that some find useful, but again, unless you know what is causing the ORP, the number us useless. The reason is that in general, dirty water has a lower ORP than clean water; however, strong oxidizers like hydrogen peroxide, chlorine, chloramine, and potassium permanganate all will raise ORP. I could design a system that would maintain ORP at the "optimal" value (whatever that is) by tying a chlorine injector to an ORP meter and injecting chlorine as needed to keep the ORP at a predetermined value. All of the fish would be dead, but the water would be clear and the ORP would be perfect.

      Dissolved organic compounds (or dissolved organic carbon, DOC) would be the best indicator; however, it is not feasible for the typical koi enthusiast to measure DOC. Ideally, DOC should be as low as possible, but since you cannot measure it, DOC is useful only as a concept, and not as a parameter that can be measured. One of the things that contribute to DOC but would require expensive equipment and a great deal of technical expertise to measure are growth inhibiting pheromones that are excreted by the fish. One of the things that water changes does is to dilute these compounds that we know are there but cannot easily measure.

      If you keep ammonia and nitrite at concentrations that are nondetectable by the API test kits, KH above 100 ppm (150 ppm if you have a bead filter or if you are subject to heavy rainfall), nitrate no higher than 80 ppm, the pond is large enough that rapid fluctuations in temperature are not going to occur, the pond is designed that surface water following heavy rain does not run into the pond, and you do not allow debris to accumulate in the pond or in the filters, it is unlikely that you will kill any fish because of poor water quality. You might not get maximum growth or the very best colors the fish are capable of showing, but genetics has more to do with those than water changes do, anyway.

      For the average pond, 50 to 75 gallons of new water per koi per week would be a good starting point to guide water changes. In a 2000 gallon pond with 8 koi, that would translate to between 20% and 30% per week, but as I stated before, if you had only 4 koi in the same pond, you could get by with 10% to 15% per week, and if you had 12 koi, you would need to change 30% to 45% per week to achieve the same results. All of this assumes, of course, that the filtration is adequate to maintain nondetectable (with API test kits) concentrations of ammonia and nitrite, the KH stays above 100 ppm (which will prevent a pH crash), there is no runoff into the pond, and the water temperature does not change quickly. Water changes of that magnitude are sufficient to maintain healthy koi, but I still cannot say whether that is the optimal rate. Again, depending on the pond and the source water, less might be just as good or more might be better, but you should not kill any koi at that rate.

    17. #37
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      Rick thanks so much for this very helpful post. My tap water KH is 110ppm. I find that in the winter when there is not much acid being produced it stays at 110 ppm with 20% weekly water changes. Fish were happy. Recently with increased feeding it's dropped to 90ppm and keeping it at 90ppm is requiring me to do 55% water change weekly. I know last year during a ph crash it could have been lower (I was not measuring kh then until later that summer). Lucky I caught it early and all my fish pulled through. No wonder it's true that one can never do enough water changes (as per Russ and others) especially in the summer, but you can cut back in the winter. Now I'm finding that maintaining my KH will limit the amount I feed as well as the lowering temperature that comes along with water changes. Would adding baking soda allow me to feed more (I am aiming for good growth especially with our short growing season), also what would you consider a comfortable enough water temperature change during water changes?
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      Quote Originally Posted by jimfish98 View Post
      I have a simple method for determining if I need a water change. Once a week I take a good hard look at my water and if there are fish in it, I change out at least 50%. A few weeks ago I was on vacation and looked off the boat, didn't see the pond or fish, so I didn't do a water change. So far this method has worked out well for me for years.
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    19. #39
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      Quote Originally Posted by KoiRun View Post
      I didn't think Anyone Else got that

    20. #40
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      For a newbie/ nerd/ OCD - person like me I NEED NUMBERS NUMBER NUMBERS!

      Here you go, objective measurable values.
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