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    Thread: Matt's Showa Spawn 2016

    1. #21
      Arid's Avatar
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      That's an amazing amount of growth in three weeks. I have a few runts from last years spawn (they keep evading the net) that still aren't that big!!!! I wonder if it's one particular thing that you have added that is responsible for the huge growth or is it just a combination of the entire paste?

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    2. #22
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      Thanks Delbert. With the small numbers, this may mainly be just a season for learning, including getting to see a sampling of what comes from this new female. But maybe I'll get lucky on one or two. I look forward to the next update on your showa thread.

      Quote Originally Posted by Arid View Post
      That's an amazing amount of growth in three weeks. I have a few runts from last years spawn (they keep evading the net) that still aren't that big!!!! I wonder if it's one particular thing that you have added that is responsible for the huge growth or is it just a combination of the entire paste?
      Arid, I think the main factor is all the high protein in the seafood. Whether tuna, salmon, herring, sardines, or mackerel, it all seems to make 'em grow. In previous years, I had noticed that a very small number of tobi will explode in growth, dwarfing all the others by eating huge numbers of their siblings. Now, it seems that the seafood basically gives them all a chance to grow like a tobi.

      This is the first year that I have fed them seafood from early on. My 2015 showa spawn had large numbers and was slow growing. At 12 weeks, with the number reduced to around 100, about half were 1.5” or larger and half were still under 1.5” with quite a few still a little under 1”. I had moved three 4”-5” tobi, that were huge compared to all the others, out to the large pond. I fed the ~100 smaller ones frozen chunks for the first time, 45% tuna and herring, 30% English peas, & 25% powdered pellets (with similar recipe variations when I ran out). By 15 weeks most of these were 2.5”-3.5” with none under 1.75” (nearly doubling their length in 3 weeks). By 20 weeks (5 weeks later), most of these were 4”-4.5” with none under 3.5”. That big jump in growth after a very slow start. Once I moved them to the big pond with the adults at about 5”, they switched to adult pellet food, but kept growing well in the big water.

      [I should note that at two weeks old, when I started feeding the paste food to this very small group of 2016 showa fry, they were a little longer, 5/8” - 3/4”, and noticably thicker than the 2015 fry were at that age. I think that is mainly due to the smaller numbers (less competition for food).]

    3. #23
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      Quote Originally Posted by Matt24 View Post
      Yikes! Glad to hear you did not wind up "sleeping with the fishes".

      Yes, between all the fish and the garlic, the odor is rather noticeable. I do all the mixing out on the patio. My wife GAVE me my very own food processer just for this purpose.

      Right or wrong, to this point I've been using canned seafood, peas, and pumpkin. I prefer the seafood packed in water, but at times I have used some sardines packed in olive oil. I don't know if the brands matter, but I have used Crown Prince and King Oscar. Once we had some big cans of sardines in tomato sauce. I wasn't sure that would be good, so I hosed the sardines off before I mixed them in. Rather than garlic salt, I have used McCormick's Garlic Powder. However the batch I just mixed up a week ago has 10 oz (~7% of the mix) of garlic cloves from our garden, chopped up. Seems like no matter what I put it the mix, they can't get enough of it. This has never caused a water quality problem for me, but I should note that I mainly feed this in an 1800 gallon pond with established filtration. The effect on water in a smaller tub may differ.

      In my showa thread from last year at https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...owa-spawn-2015, check out posts #28, 33, 70, 96, 98, 106, & 132 where Wombat provided lots of recipe and feeding tips.

      By the way, last week I mentioned that I was not seeing any ginrin, but now I am starting to notice a small number of ginrin, perhaps on about 10% of them.
      sleeping with the fish too funny..............thanks for the threads...matt.

    4. #24
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      just want to thank wombat, and Matt. for posting the recipes...quick up date here. i got some peas could not find English peas so the got green giant small sweet.8.5 oz...........4 oz of tiny shrimp[chicken of the sea. 10/oz salmon. 2 packs of bumble bee sardines in water.3.75 oz each..6.5 oz of minced clams [b.bee] 2 heaping table spoons minced garlic. then i added 1/2 cup 50% protein fish food .and 1/2 color burst fish food 30% p. 4oz crab meat...and i took this outside to mix ...i made 2 small marble size balls dropped them in it only took 10 seconds they schooled up and had a fine dinner..THANK YOU WOMBAT.THANK YOU MATT

    5. #25
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      That sounds like a great mix BT. They should tear in to that.

      Besides the high protein, maybe another reason they grow so fast is that they seem to like it more than other foods and eat more of it.

      Something I noticed from trying different recipes: When I use substantial amounts of garlic or garlic powder (~5% or more of the mix), the chunks disintegrate fairly quickly into powder. The frozen chunks also have to float a long time before they will sink. But if I don't use much or any garlic (~3% or less), the chunks hold together better and sink more readily. [The fry like it either way.]

    6. #26
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      you are correct; some quick math here i have found in one day they are eating over 20 x more food ..and would eat more if i was to drop some in. watching water close now.. i put my paste in sandwich zip bags and made 4 about 3/8 thick pressed them flat trying to get them pretty even and froze those . i have not used any frozen yet had a few table spoons of paste and started with that. i forgot to add pumpkin . and i think next time im gonna add some yeast, and a couple of orange slices or grapefruit .. but im very happy now .i think this will help here a lot. the brine shrimp, blood worms gets pricey..yeah it good to get them eating from hand when young..and i love watching hundreds of fry feed from hand but i think the paste is what im gonna feed from now on ...im gonna keep my eye on the color, and the water close for a while and see how this goes.

    7. #27
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      Maybe someone can correct me if this sounds off-base: But looking at the nutritional information on the seafood cans, I see that for lean fish like tuna, the serving is about 20% protein, and all of the rest of the tuna makes up very little of the weight. For fatter fish like salmon, it is more like 20% protein and 10% fat, with all of the rest of the salmon making up very little of the weight. So where is the other 70-80% of the weight? From some on-line reading, I am gathering that most fish are composed of around 70%-80% water. For the non-water part of the fish, the protein percentage is really high. I think you have to subtract the water from the seafood in order to make an apples-to-apples comparison with the dry pellets that are what most people feed koi. But even considering that, I think the fry still eat much more of the seafood blended paste than they do when you feed them pulverized pellets.

    8. #28
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      If you are reading the nutrition information, the protein listed as percentage is usually percent of daily recommended value. If you are using the drained weight and servings to get size of serving and comparing it to the weight of protein, I think you will find it higher %. Yes, it will have a lot of water in it, that if you used a dehydrator, to make jerky, it would weigh in much lower.
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    9. #29
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      Here's a life hack for raising fry. When you finished mixing up all of your smelly seafood paste, and rather than than washing it all inside and annoying the rest of your family with the smell. Just drop the blender jug, knives and spoons in the in with the fry and they will have that spotless and clean in no time

    10. #30
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      Quote Originally Posted by RichToyBox View Post
      If you are reading the nutrition information, the protein listed as percentage is usually percent of daily recommended value. If you are using the drained weight and servings to get size of serving and comparing it to the weight of protein, I think you will find it higher %. Yes, it will have a lot of water in it, that if you used a dehydrator, to make jerky, it would weigh in much lower.
      Rich, I was dividing the weight of protein or fat in grams (per serving) by the serving size in grams listed on the can.
      Tuna 11 g protein in a 56 g serving (~20%).
      Salmon 12 g protein in a 63 g serving (~19%) and 5 g fat in a 63 g serving (~8%).

      Arid, I do rinse the bowl, spoon, etc in the pond, as all the morsels will be taken care of. Then the utinsils go to the garage, not to the kitchen, as they are only used for this purpose.

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    11. #31
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      Good growth has continued. Quality seems okay for the number, but way too few hatched to amount to much. The most common deformity has been head shape, where the back of the head looks pinched in or one or both cheeks/jaw look pinched in, making the nose extra pointy or unbalanced. There were a couple of really nicely colored/patterned showa among the deformed. This is encouraging for using this group next year, if I can get bigger numbers to hatch.

      At 7 weeks, they are all 2.5” - 4.5”, having grown 1.25” - 2” in 3 weeks. They were 1.25" – 2.5” at 4 weeks, but after 3 more weeks, a third were 4” - 4.5”, half were 3” - 3.5”, and the remaining few were ~2.5”. Here is some bad photography (indoors at night) of the dozen or so I am still watching.

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    12. #32
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      Looking good !! Matt

    13. #33
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      Doubling their size in three weeks. Sounds good to me. Looking forward to seeing how they turn out.

    14. #34
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      Hi Matt,

      Great work so far mate looking good, The Gin Rin looks potentially wicked nice an even looks like a shiro too, Well Done.

    15. #35
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      There looking nice and fat. Can't wait to see the colors come in. If you are having trouble with the food mix floating mix in some powdered bentonite clay.

    16. #36
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      Here's an update on the fat few. At 12 weeks, they are all in the 5"-7" range, having grown about 2.5" in 5 weeks, up from 2.5” - 4.5” at 7 weeks. Most seem to be thick, but holding a good body shape. The ginrin utsuri (second from the right in the group photo) is an exception that is getting too fat. The colors do not seemed to have changed much, though certain ones seem just a little brighter.

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    17. #37
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      Woah!!! They are looking fantastic! Really healthy looking nuggets with great shape and color.

    18. #38
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      They are a nice batch Matt! I have found that feeding them shrimp to bring out their colors more. Especially the reds. Keep us updated.

    19. #39
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      Thanks y'all, and I also appreciate the shrimp tip. I had not used that much shrimp so far this year.

    20. #40
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      Due to having been very busy this fall, I had stopped blending them up the high protein seafood after they were 12 weeks old and 5"-7". For the last 11 weeks, I have been feeding them adult pellets, supplemented by whatever they find in the 1800 gallon pond. They are now 6"-9", having grown 1"-2" each over that time. The cooler weather, occasionally below freezing, has slowed the growth some. On a couple of them I am seeing some ginrin that I had not noticed earlier. Some have underlying sumi that I am hoping will eventually come up strong, but for now it is wait and see. Here are some photos take last night. Sorry for the poor lighting.
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